Turning it around

[jjakq27]

With all due respect to the late Chris Farley, I propose the question, "How do we get back on the right track?"

I have a few thoughts and ideas on this.

First, run the ball more. We are too quick to abandon the run even when we are in the game. Run blocking is easier to do than pass blocking so this will help with guys like Braham and Levi. Running more often will also take the pressure off of Palmer.

Second, throw the deep ball more often. I don't mean this as a contadiction to the first item but they need to sprinkle a bomb in once in-a-while rather then screens and outs all the time. Throwing these passes once they cross midfield will stretch the secondary and minimize the damage if it is intercepted. This will help the running game also.

Third, use the tight ends on first or second downs. Make them cover the ends which will help with Chad, since PDub may be out again.

Lastly, blitz early and often. They are not getting enough pressure up the middle on pass plays, so sending someone can only help.

[BengalBobNC]

First, run the ball more. We are too quick to abandon the run even when we are in the game. Run blocking is easier to do than pass blocking so this will help with guys like Braham and Levi. Running more often will also take the pressure off of Palmer.

I think we will see that this weekend.

Second, throw the deep ball more often. I don't mean this as a contadiction to the first item but they need to sprinkle a bomb in once in-a-while rather then screens and outs all the time. Throwing these passes once they cross midfield will stretch the secondary and minimize the damage if it is intercepted. This will help the running game also.

They have been throwing the deep pass but haven't connected often enough. It does stretch the defense and make them stay honest instead of creeping in against the run.

Third, use the tight ends on first or second downs. Make them cover the ends which will help with Chad, since PDub may be out again.

Depends on the formations, but I hear you.

Lastly, blitz early and often. They are not getting enough pressure up the middle on pass plays, so sending someone can only help.

We did that against Pittsburgh, they picked it up, and burned our secondary. If you blitz you must get pressure. Make the QB run out of the pocket or best of all, get the sack. If they pick up our blitz, which everyone except Miami, has done pretty well, it puts too much pressure on the secondary and we give up the big play. But if it works, bring it and bring it often. If it doesn't work, surprise them when you can.

Given our run defense, most teams are thinking run vs pass anyway. We need the run defense to step up. If guys are blitzing, it's up to the remaining LBs or DBs to stop the RB....after he's already picked up 8+ yards.

[Kirkendall]

First, run the ball more. We are too quick to abandon the run even when we are in the game. Run blocking is easier to do than pass blocking so this will help with guys like Braham and Levi. Running more often will also take the pressure off of Palmer.

This has been my argument going back last year, one that Barb has also caught on with that "Drunk-kowski" panics and starts throwing all of the sudden. Look back at the losses last season with games within a touchdown. Against Arizona, if my mind doesn't fail me, the Bengals ran 4 times from the middle of the 3rd quarter on and we were never behind by more than 7. Just because the rush doesn't work, doesn't mean we should give up on the run. This team isn't good enough to go one-dimensional.

Second, throw the deep ball more often. I don't mean this as a contadiction to the first item but they need to sprinkle a bomb in once in-a-while rather then screens and outs all the time. Throwing these passes once they cross midfield will stretch the secondary and minimize the damage if it is intercepted. This will help the running game also.

I think we're throwing the ball deep on plenty occassions. It's just that they are getting caught by opposing defenses. I'd actually like to see a deep pass either to a Bengal or incomplete. I understand the importance of throwing deep passes to stretch out the defense for the rushing game to suceed, but stop with the turnovers.

Third, use the tight ends on first or second downs. Make them cover the ends which will help with Chad, since PDub may be out again.

Agreed.

Lastly, blitz early and often. They are not getting enough pressure up the middle on pass plays, so sending someone can only help.

Agreed to a point. I think the Bengals have been burnt more times than not on blitzing. Our cornerbacks are NOT good enough to cover wide receivers one-on-one and they need help. So this promotes a double-edged sword of a question. Do you blitz and allow the probability of a deep pass for a TD, or sit back and allow the QB to throw comfertably?

[jjakq27]

As far as CP's INTs, I seem to remember that they are getting picked off on the out patterns and the deep flat passes. The pick by Palomalu and the one at the end of the Jets game were in the same vicinity.

My thought on the blitz is that when we get pressure from the ends the QB steps up because there is no one collapsing the pocket from the middle. I would rather force the issue once in awhile rather than get picked to death by rushing only four.

[Kirkendall]

My thought on the blitz is that when we get pressure from the ends the QB steps up because there is no one collapsing the pocket from the middle. I would rather force the issue once in awhile rather than get picked to death by rushing only four.

The problem isn't the Bengals pass rush. They are 7th in the NFL against the pass giving up an average 178 yards per game. The problem is rush defense, once again. If you blitz, you bring LBers up and they get blocked by linemen quicker allowing for much bigger runs and we all know the problem the LBs have shedding off blocks.

Now if you blitz more LBs, then a somewhat smart QB will audible to a quick deep route either to expose the zone or against toast (err. Tory James) for a long touchdown pass.

Like I said, it's a double-edged sword.

[TippCityRick]

I'm thinkin' tackling the opponent when they have the ball and are attempting to advance it forward would be a good start.

[schweinhart]

Best shot for pass blitz is with nickel back in 3 WR set. Bauman is quicker to the ball than anyone else for this.

LB blitzing in pass situations is riskier. Better to let front 4 (hopefully w/ more Geathers and less Clemons this week) get whatever pressure they can. Garcia is more of a threat to Bengals out of pocket than in. The Clowns WRs are not of the ability as the Steelers. O'Neal will shut down and James will toe the line for this one. Force Garcia to win w/ arm not legs.

Lb run blitzing from outside is worth the gamble to force runs into middle. Hardy has best shot, which should also keep especially Suggs from bouncing off the right side so much like he did in last year's last game.

[BengalBobNC]

I'm thinkin' tackling the opponent when they have the ball and are attempting to advance it forward would be a good start.

I nominate TCR for Defensive Coordinator!

TCR huddling with the defense on the sideline before they take the field:

TCR: Whoever has the ball in their possesion...wipe them out! Go get 'em boys!!

I like it!

Seriously: That is the area we need to concentrate on.

[Barbarian]

This has been my argument going back last year, one that Barb has also caught on with that "Drunk-kowski" panics and starts throwing all of the sudden. Look back at the losses last season with games within a touchdown. Against Arizona, if my mind doesn't fail me, the Bengals ran 4 times from the middle of the 3rd quarter on and we were never behind by more than 7. Just because the rush doesn't work, doesn't mean we should give up on the run. This team isn't good enough to go one-dimensional.

Kirk,

First off--thanks for the props, my man!!! Second--Drunkowski isn't learning his lessons. In his recent interviews, he didn't take ANY of the blame for his constantly going "3rd and 9s" late in the game. Usually, when you're 3rd and 9 late in the game--then you're unmercifully passing the stinking ball.

Kirk also mentioned the Arizona Game last year. Let me elaborate a little more on Drunkowski with his major f**k-up on this game:

1. The Bungles lost that game by 3 points. 3 points!!!

2. Rudi had 150+ on the ground for the day. The Bungles still lose the game!!! HOW IN THE HELL??? DRUNKOWSKI CALLED THE WRONG PLAYS LATE IN THE GAME. HE STARTED HEAVING THE BALL WHEN HE DIDN'T HAVE TO. THE BUNGLES WERE ALWAYS IN THAT GAME.

3. Some Coordinator from Arizona figured out what it was going to take to win--as some nobody named "SHIPP" drove the ball right up the Bungles' Run Defense ass.

4. Referring to #3--Arizona drove the ball in the 3rd quarter for over 6 minutes in taking command of time of possession for the game. This usually seals victory.

So, Drunkowski's f**ked up playcalling has been happening for quite sometime now. He's not learning any type of lesson. So, firing him is the only option. I'm also thinking that the Bungles' Organization are not quick to realize things such as this. Mike Brown & Company puts LOYALTY and being cheap above winning--so I'm not expecting a change to happen anytime soon.

I'm saying that Drunkowski will be back next year. And I'll still be furious as hell as to why Bob was hired in the 1st place.

It's assnine.

[BengalszoneBilly]

And I'll still be furious as hell as to why Bob was hired in the 1st place.

Well maybe his bio posted at the Bengals website will shed some light on this question of yours, as well as many others here:

Bob Bratkowski

Offensive coordinator

Bob Bratkowski is in his third season as Bengals offensive coordinator, coming of a 2002 campaign in which the offense had a number of notable achievements. The list included:

HB Corey Dillon rushing for 1311 yards, his third straight season over 1300 yards.

WR Chad Johnson gaining 1166 receiving yards, fifth-most in team history and most ever by a Bengals first or second-year player.

A club-record 350 pass completions.

For the first time in Bengals history, five players caught 40 or more passes.

A team completion percentage of 59.2, a mark exceeded only once in 18 previous Bengals seasons.

A streak of six straight games of 350 or more net yards, the club’s longest such streak since 1986.

A career-high 79.1 passer rating for QB Jon Kitna.

Kitna took over as the starting QB in Game 5 of last season, and had the averages for the last 12 games been the Bengals’ averages for the full season, Cincinnati would have ranked eighth in the NFL in net offense (357.3) and seventh in net passing (240.1).

All of the above played into an early decision by new Bengals head coach Marvin Lewis that he wished to retain Bratkowski as his coordinator. Bratkowski also was given significant input into the selection of an offensive position coach staff that includes three newcomers and two returnees.

"We have a good mix.” Bratkowski said. “We have people who have coached other places, and people who give us continuity. We don’t have to go back to basics, but we have new input. Now we have to put it all together and improve. Even though we had some good numbers last season, the bottom line is that we have to win a lot more games.”

Bratkowski has been an NFL coach since 1992, and was coordinator of the University of Miami’s NCAA champion offenses in 1989 and ’91. He left the Pittsburgh Steelers, where he spent the 1999 and 2000 seasons as wide receivers coach, to join the Bengals in 2001.

He closed a seven-year stint with the Seattle Seahawks in 1998 with the departure of head coach Dennis Erickson. Bratkowski was coordinator for the NFL’s top passing offense at Seattle in 1997, and he had previously served as Erickson’s offensive coordinator at three major college programs — Wyoming (1986), Washington State (1987-88) and Miami, Fla. (1989-91).

Bratkowski’s first Bengals campaign, in 2001, had its share of season-long offensive accomplishments. The Bengals allowed only 28 sacks, the fourth-best performance in club history, despite attempting a team-record 602 passes. The offense showed significant improvement over its 2000 season performance in a number of categories, including points (226-185), first downs (294-254), total yards (4800-4260), passing yards (3088-1946), third-down conversion percentage (38.3-33.9) and possession time (29:16-27:13).

Bratkowski’s scheme relies on multiple formations which keep the defense guessing. “You can’t do any one thing exclusively in the NFL,” he says. “You can’t do just a couple things.”

In 1999, his first season with Pittsburgh, Bratkowski was instrumental in the development of rookie wide receiver and No. 1 draft pick Troy Edwards, who tied for the team lead with 61 receptions. He also helped in the emergence of second-year receiver Hines Ward, who tied Edwards with 61 catches.

In 1997, Bratkowski’s Seattle offense posted an NFL-leading average of 247.4 passing yards per game and ranked third in the NFL in total offense. Seattle also established club season records in ’97 for most yards passing (4187) and completions (359). The Seahawks were second in the NFL in first downs (331).

Prior to his Seattle appointment in ‘92, Bratkowski spent 14 years as a college coach, including his three college stops with Erickson.

As a college player, Bratkowski was a three-year letterman as a wide receiver at Washington State. His father, Zeke, played quarterback for 14 seasons in the NFL (with the Bears, Rams and Packers).

Bob and his wife, Rebecca, have two children — son Shane and daughter Courtney.(YEA!!! He's not gay and his d**k works! )

[Barbarian]

Billy,

So far against Drunkowski:

1. He tried to make Kordella into a pocket passer.

2. Indirectly responsible for last year's late collapse

3. Indirectly responsible for this year's 1-3 record.

4. Is probably the worst Offensive Coordinator in the NFL.

5. Probably the lowest paid Offensive Coordinator in the NFL.

Would I be wrong about ANY of these 5 points???

[BengalszoneBilly]

Billy,

So far against Drunkowski:

1. He tried to make Kordella into a pocket passer.

2. Indirectly responsible for last year's late collapse

3. Indirectly responsible for this year's 1-3 record.

4. Is probably the worst Offensive Coordinator in the NFL.

5. Probably the lowest paid Offensive Coordinator in the NFL.

Would I be wrong about ANY of these 5 points???

Hold on now Barb. I sure ain't defending this guy, or any other coordinator on the Bengals staff for that matter! Their performances during their careers in Cincinnati have for the most part been largely forgettable, especially Fraziers, and he was a member (DB) of that Chicago Bears Super Bowl winning powerhouse!

Brats has just been a little more memorable, but thats just the nature of the offense versus the defense. Big TD passes are much more memorable than a game full of third down stops that get the ball back for the offense!

[rob_justdmb]

Billy,

So far against Drunkowski:

2. Indirectly responsible for last year's late collapse

3. Indirectly responsible for this year's 1-3 record.

Would I be wrong about ANY of these 5 points???

I didn't see Bratkowski spread the flu to the offense, take Jon Kitna's voice in a rowdy road stadium, or personally go take out Levi Jones's knee vs. Baltimore.

I didn't see Bratkowski fail to cover anyone or run on the field during a punt return vs. the Rams, or plant Adrian Ross's spike in the turf leading to...

I didn't see Bratkowski repeatedly miss tackles, and fail to stay home and properly plug the holes Lee Suggs ran through, or even overthrow a wide open Matt Schobel.

It is ridiculous that opposing teams can average almost 2 bills a game on the ground vs. us in the last 4 games and you're going to blame Bratkowski for the season falling apart.

Bottom line, when you don't stop the run, the other team keeps your offense from scoring. Kitna was attrocious in those 3 games we lost.

You can't get pissed at the power O getting stopped in the same situation that it worked vs. 49ers. They knew it was coming they still couldn't stop it.

[Kirkendall]

It is ridiculous that opposing teams can average almost 2 bills a game on the ground vs. us in the last 4 games and you're going to blame Bratkowski for the season falling apart.

The criticism goes back to last year too... when we lost by 7 or less points and rushed very little and put the entire show on Kitna.

Here are a few examples:

Pittsburgh 1: Lost the game 17-10

At half time, the Bengals were losing 7-0 and rushed the ball 11 times. The second half saw the Bengals rush 5 times! And it's not like Kitna was great that day, he passed 14 times completed 8 for 65 yards and 1 TD. Good, but not good enough. BTW, the Bengals rushed 16 times total in this one...

Arizona: Lost the game 17-14

At half time, the Bengals were winning 14-10. Cards took over the lead on their first second half possession leading 17-14 and the Bengals, on que, ran the ball 6 TIMES after the start of the third quarter.

*** THIS IS TWO GAMES WE SHOULD HAVE WON AND GAMES THAT WOULD HAVE PUT US IN THE PLAYOFFS, YES? NO? (please circle one) *** -- don't forget about the tie-breaking scenario!

These are just quick examples from an overall perspective. None of this includes the countless 3rd and 1's that had the team passing deep as opposed to sending Dillon or Rudi right up the middle. Perhaps someone else can include scenario situations...

Fact is in 2003 rushing often times determined the Bengals chances...

Lowest Rush Attempts in Win: 25

Highest Rush Attempts in Win: 57

Lowest Rush Attempts in Loss: 16

Highest Rush Attempts in Loss: 39

Average Rushes during Wins: 35.875

Average Rushes during Losses: 24

In 2004 the average rush attempts per loss is 27. Only 3 more attempts. More so, the Bengals highest rush attempts in a loss is 28 against the Jets -- a game we were competitive in -- which is 7 rush attempts below last years average per win.

Of course, with only one win, there is no stats to back up this just yet. But as you can see, the Bengals need to rush the ball in order for the result to benefit the Bengals -- something Bob hasn't grasped just yet.

[schweinhart]

Yeah, if the Barbarian is wrong on this one it's only because he is too kind to Brat.

I would say Brat was DIRECTLY responsible for the Bengals not making the playoffs last year.

Besides Pitt and Zona, like Kirk says, the Rams and 2nd Browns game were infuriating to watch because of Brat. The Bengals should have run the ball all day long in those last 2 and would have run all day long w/ great success. Plus, it would have kept the sh*tty D off the field.

This year, Brat has called run more but dumba$$ calls like the one that compelled Rudi to slam his helmet to the ground is indicative that Brat can't quite leave the Mike Martz fantasy land.

Brat should be told to run Rudi 30 times or he's fired. That should take care of problem.

[BengalBobNC]

I would say Brat was DIRECTLY responsible for the Bengals not making the playoffs last year.

IMO: The defense was more directly to blame. Perhaps thats why 6 picks were used in the draft.

In the last Ravens game last year an offensive lineman went down, the Ravens streamed in from that side to knock Kitna all over the place and disrupted the run. Perhaps we didn't adjust accordingly, but that is history.

The 49ers game showed the defensive problems. Even though we won it it was a shootout. Brat called a great game there as I recall. The defense gave up a lot of yardage. It was down hill for that unit after that.

Our last four games of 2003 we were 1-3:

Bengals 13 Ravens 31

Bengals 41 49ers 38 W

Bengals 10 Rams 27

Bengals 14 Browns 22

The defense gave up a lot of points. After the 49ers game the offense, defense, and special teams struggled. We ran out of gas, but came oh so close.

[jjakq27]

Yeah, if the Barbarian is wrong on this one it's only because he is too kind to Brat.

I would say Brat was DIRECTLY responsible for the Bengals not making the playoffs last year.

Besides Pitt and Zona, like Kirk says, the Rams and 2nd Browns game were infuriating to watch because of Brat. The Bengals should have run the ball all day long in those last 2 and would have run all day long w/ great success. Plus, it would have kept the sh*tty D off the field.

This year, Brat has called run more but dumba$$ calls like the one that compelled Rudi to slam his helmet to the ground is indicative that Brat can't quite leave the Mike Martz fantasy land.

Brat should be told to run Rudi 30 times or he's fired. That should take care of problem.

Amen Brother!!!!!!!!!

Run 'til you can't run no more.

[Kirkendall]

Boy, the defense truly does have problems and have always since 2001.

Time of Possession of the last three loses.

Bengals 13 Ravens 31 - 27 minutes including 6 three and outs.

Bengals 10 Rams 27- 24:42

Bengals 14 Browns 22 - over 10 minutes in the final quarter.

TOP is a good indication on how well the team is moving the ball in most generalistic circumstances. When we dominate TOP, we will 9 times out of 10, win the game pretty convincingly -- the 1 out of 10 resembles last years Oakland game.

The point is when this team rushes well, it keeps the awful defense off the field; which is the alternate solution. And in order to give probable winning solutions to dreadful realities, is keeping the only positive aspect -- if you call it that -- on the field; the offense.

[Bengal_Smoov]

We definitely need to run to be successful. Carson has proven that he is not ready win games yet, so Brat should let Rudi try. Rudi is in a contract year and wants/needs to have a big year. With Perry,Watson(who I love), and Rudi we should run the ball at least 40 times a game, besides our O-line is suited better for the running game.

The game against the Browns is going to be a battle. We have to have this game to keep our hopes up. Coming into the season I wasn't a fan that bought the playoff talk everyone was trying to sell. We didn't upgrade at DT, starting a rookie qb, and new players at key positions all point to struggles this year. Next year is Marvin's 3rd year as head coach, typically a make or break year for NFL coaches. As much as I like the guy, if things continue as they are now we might need to make some changes. Personally I hope Marvin gets some new coordinators, like Breshenan and Zampese maybe?

[TippCityRick]

Welcome Smoov.

There has been an good bit of talk regarding our coordinators. I think Bratkowski's offense doesn't fit with Marvin's vision. Not run oriented enough. But ML wisely kept him around because that was the one area of the team that was having success when he took over.

As far as defensively, Leslie is a friend so that relationship may keep him around for an extra year. You're correct that this team isn't going anywhere with the current Dline. Maybe Geathers and Askew will be ready to produce on a high level next year, but this year we will take our lumps. We aren't as "high pressure" as I believe either LF or ML want to be.

[BengalszoneBilly]

Personally I hope Marvin gets some new coordinators, like Breshenan and Zampese maybe?

I knew there was something I liked about this new guy! Welcome to the 'Zone Smoov!

[WHO DEY AGAIN?]

There has been an good bit of talk regarding our coordinators. I think Bratkowski's offense doesn't fit with Marvin's vision. Not run oriented enough. But ML wisely kept him around because that was the one area of the team that was having success when he took over.

I know a good running game would take a lot of presssure off of Palmer. Brat's play calling is hurting Palmer. The last thing a first year QB needs is a defense that can pin it's ears back and come after ya. Next thing you know you have yahhoos calling for Kitna.

On the D side you have a line missing a big run stuffer. A first rounder would have been nice but no we draft a RB. Hardy has worn out his welcome IMO. The secondary would look a whole lot better if anyone could get some pressure.

Here's hoping Rudi runs 30 times and the D line doesn't get pushed around and makes Garcia pass. If We can stop the run or at least avoid the long ones it will be a win. If Rudi don't get the carries and Suggs has over 100 yards then we'll lose and I'll be reading crap about Kitna. WHO DEY!!! :player:

[Bengal_Smoov]

Thanks for the friendly welcome guys. I used to post regularly on Jungle Talk, on JT's website, but it got shut down. I'm glad I found this message board, it's pretty sweet. I love the format and Tetris is the best video game ever, next to Madden. I have found a new home so get used to seeing me post M-F, 9-6, you know working hours.

[Kirkendall]

Here's hoping Rudi runs 30 times...

Yea, I hope so too. And it doesn't even have to be Rudi, but the Bengals offense as a team needs to run at least 35 times. That's the average rush attempts per win in 2003.

...and it doesn't even have to be effective. But it needs to keep the defense on their toes, always rushing up to the line of srimmage opening up passing lanes for Carson.

I think Carson's slow start is 50% play-calling, 25% lack of a defense, and 25% a result of his inexperience.

But this season was expected to perform as such. We got caught up in the hype after the very successful 2003 season pushing our expectations to un-realistic levels. Now we're coming back to earth but forgetting the promise this team has for future successes. On the front page I wrote about it extensively. In fact Billy got on my ass about the Bengals making 2005 a potential big year.. he thought this year (2004) would be great.. what a funny guy.

[jditty47]

ya i agree the play calling is bad, but as you can tell, palmer never audibles. He needs more time in there to be able to read the defenses and learn what to do. Even if brat is calling the plays, he has the option, i hope he does, to change it up. Over time it will get better, but overtime the D wont get much better. We need a bigger or better defensive line. Even if we make the playoffs it will be tough to do anything to anyone due to our run defense. This next offseason is crucial to the development of a new defensive line. I hope all 4 are gone or benched.

btw, welcome aboard smoov.