Bengals Formula

[BengalPimp]

So the Bengals added another 3 former 1st Rd Busts this offseason. Whether in Free Agency or in trade it seems as though they PRIMARILY pursue everyone else's 1st Rd Busts.

It's been a mixed bag, but add Harvey, Allen, and Anderson to the long list that includes guys like Benson, "Pac Man" Jones, Manny Lawson, Matt Jones, Reggie Nelson, Deltha O'Neal, etc.

**Honorable mention to Taylor Mays a supposed "1st Rd Talent" who slipped to the 2nd...

Who's next? Vernon Gholston?...sheesh......

It's no secret those guys ALL came cheap. Where they did get some production out of some of those guys, this "model" has also proven it won't get you over the hump......Time to start targeting some established talent Mikey boy.....With this team being so close, they are only a couple of LEGIT players away, now is not the time to add more reclamation projects. ESPECIALLY WITH THE MONEY YOU HAD TO SPEND!

Needless to say, the only signing I am good with, is that of a former undrafted free agent (BGE) not these bums.

The draft can't come soon enough for me............

Its mind-boggling that you're whining about the guys the Bengals are bringing in to fill out the roster. Idiot fans.

But you hit the nail on the head....The guys they brought in are mostly just to fill out the roster, NOT Improve it. If you're happy with Maybe going 9-7 again or 7-9 fine.

The Bengals had money to spend, and aside maybe for RB, didn't really improve. They got worse along the defensive line. Say what you want about Rucker and Fanene,but the TRUTH IS those 2 guys represented about 25% of the Bengals Sacks (10.5). They both knew the system and were extemely effective in their roles (Fanene 2nd on the team in Sacks and Rucker 3rd on that D-Line in Tackles)....They did NOTHING to replace those sacks and signed two former 1st Rd bust DE's. I still ask the question, who's going to step up and replace those 10.5 Sacks?

I really haven't seen any upgrades in free agency. They kept the secondary intact and added a 3rd or 4th CB in Allen. The O-Line is about the same because Wharton isn't much of an improvement over Livings and they still havent (or know if they will) re-sign Bobbie. They got worse at WR, and will at LB if Lawson leaves...... I'm sorry, but I just don't see many improvements. They still have a lot of holes to fill, and I'm not sure they have enough draft picks to do it. If you can tell me where they actually improved, besides RB, please do......

[BengalPimp]

I get what you are saying Blue, but I think what Pimp is getting at (in relation to your response) is that there is a difference in filling out a roster and improving a roster.

My point exactly Army.

[skyline]

So the Bengals added another 3 former 1st Rd Busts this offseason. Whether in Free Agency or in trade it seems as though they PRIMARILY pursue everyone else's 1st Rd Busts.

It's been a mixed bag, but add Harvey, Allen, and Anderson to the long list that includes guys like Benson, "Pac Man" Jones, Manny Lawson, Matt Jones, Reggie Nelson, Deltha O'Neal, etc.

**Honorable mention to Taylor Mays a supposed "1st Rd Talent" who slipped to the 2nd...

Who's next? Vernon Gholston?...sheesh......

It's no secret those guys ALL came cheap. Where they did get some production out of some of those guys, this "model" has also proven it won't get you over the hump......Time to start targeting some established talent Mikey boy.....With this team being so close, they are only a couple of LEGIT players away, now is not the time to add more reclamation projects. ESPECIALLY WITH THE MONEY YOU HAD TO SPEND!

Needless to say, the only signing I am good with, is that of a former undrafted free agent (BGE) not these bums.

The draft can't come soon enough for me............

Its mind-boggling that you're whining about the guys the Bengals are bringing in to fill out the roster. Idiot fans.

But you hit the nail on the head....The guys they brought in are mostly just to fill out the roster, NOT Improve it. If you're happy with Maybe going 9-7 again or 7-9 fine.

The Bengals had money to spend, and aside maybe for RB, didn't really improve. They got worse along the defensive line. Say what you want about Rucker and Fanene,but the TRUTH IS those 2 guys represented about 25% of the Bengals Sacks (10.5). They both knew the system and were extemely effective in their roles (Fanene 2nd on the team in Sacks and Rucker 3rd on that D-Line in Tackles)....They did NOTHING to replace those sacks and signed two former 1st Rd bust DE's. I still ask the question, who's going to step up and replace those 10.5 Sacks?

I really haven't seen any upgrades in free agency. They kept the secondary intact and added a 3rd or 4th CB in Allen. The O-Line is about the same because Wharton isn't much of an improvement over Livings and they still havent (or know if they will) re-sign Bobbie. They got worse at WR, and will at LB if Lawson leaves...... I'm sorry, but I just don't see many improvements. They still have a lot of holes to fill, and I'm not sure they have enough draft picks to do it. If you can tell me where they actually improved, besides RB, please do......

Alright, now for the opposite take.

D-line: Arguably the deepest and strongest aspect of this team. We lost two depth guys that, granted, were very productive last year. However, let's suppose that was due to the system and not the talent of those particular individuals. If so, then Jamaal Anderson and company should be productive as well. 1st round bust doesn't equal untalented. Hopefully Sims (and Dunlap) stay healthy this year and it might be a wash. Which, would be a GOOD thing. Like I said...this was our largest strength last year. Also, don't forget, we aren't done in free agency (Okoye) and could always pick up a talent in the draft.

Linebacker: It looks like we're getting Lawson back, which is great news. Hopefully Moch will stay healthy and contribute. There's no telling about Rivers, but IF he returns, then we at least have increased depth at the position. Possibility of adding in the draft.

Seconday: Biggest area of concern on defense, but also one of the most likely to be helped through the draft. I'm more optimistic about Hall's return than some others around here. Signing Allen and getting Jones back is good. Getting Reggie Nelson back is a big deal and the Bengals should be given kudos for getting him in the first place and then being able to keep him. He was a 1st round bust, just like some of the d-linemen people are complaining about, right?

O-line: Hopefully will be helped through the draft, but I'm glad to have Wharton. He certainly looks like an upgrade to me.

RB - Ellis is a clear upgrade to me if he stays healthy. Younger than Benson and the lack of turnovers alone should be very helpful. I also don't anticipate having to listen to him whine every week about not getting the ball enough. Possible draft pick here as well, which I wouldn't comlpain about.

WR - Biggest area of concern on offense, but not as bad as people make it out to be. First of all, you expect Green to improve. That alone is exciting. We lost Caldwell, but if Shipley is ready to go then I consider that to be at least a wash. Gresham should only improve as a pass catcher. The big question mark is the #2 guy. The coaches seem big on Binns, and that excites me. Coming out of college I saw him as a competent receiver that was physical enough to excel at the pro level. I also see a pick here at some point and the possible return of Simpson once his suspension has been served. I don't particularly WANT Simpson back, but his familiarity with the offense gives him a step up on a lot of other guys out there.

So, as I see it:

D-line: Same, but with even more depth, especially if Sims can stay healthy. Rucker and Fanene were productive but are replacable. If the Bengals coaches really saw them as essential, they would paid them (see Reggie Nelson). We are in VERY good shape here.

LBs: Same with possible improvement via Rivers, Moch, and second year lbs being more familiar with the system.

DBs: Slightly better with improved depth and the hopeful return of Hall. Even better than that if they use a high draft pick here.

O-line: Better although only marginally. Here's hoping for a solid draft pick or two.

RB: Better

WR: ???

Also, keep in mind that if Dalton and Green improve like they should from year 1 to 2, then that's a huge upgrade right there.

So, what we have is a playoff team that has improved throughout the offseason without breaking the bank. Combine that with 2 1st round picks and there's plenty of reason for optimism.

[BengalPimp]

.

So, as I see it:

D-line: Same, but with even more depth, especially if Sims can stay healthy. Rucker and Fanene were productive but are replacable. If the Bengals coaches really saw them as essential, they would paid them (see Reggie Nelson). We are in VERY good shape here.

LBs: Same with possible improvement via Rivers, Moch, and second year lbs being more familiar with the system.

DBs: Slightly better with improved depth and the hopeful return of Hall. Even better than that if they use a high draft pick here.

O-line: Better although only marginally. Here's hoping for a solid draft pick or two.

RB: Better

WR: ???

Also, keep in mind that if Dalton and Green improve like they should from year 1 to 2, then that's a huge upgrade right there.

So, what we have is a playoff team that has improved throughout the offseason without breaking the bank. Combine that with 2 1st round picks and there's plenty of reason for optimism.

Without re-copying your entire post, let me say you had some really good points, however, they didn't improve as much as everyone thinks. What they basically did was replace some of the players who left with "questionable" talent. Nobody can honestly say the O-Line is better at this point, because they still have no RG (no Bobbie signed) and the only reason anybody can consider Wharton an upgrade is because Livings was a piece of sh*t. But let's not kid ourselves and think Travelle Wharton is a good Guard. Fact is, if Boling isn't ready, they need to still spend 2 picks on Guards in the draft.

The D-Line is worse, you can't debate that, you can however debate just how much. LB's will be the same if Lawson is re-signed and better if Rivers comes back strong, so if they didn't feel they needed to add anyone, fine. DB's are the same. The reason I CANNOT say they are better is because Chris Crocker still starts opposite Reggie Nelson.

Look, I didn't want to go all "Tampa Bay Crazy" in Free Agency, but just one significant signing could have made a world of difference. A Guard like Ben Grubbs or Carl Nicks wouldn't have crippled this team's Cap, BUT it would have free'd up one of the 1st Rd picks to use on a WR like Michael Floyd, or a Safety like Mark Barron for example. Or possibly trade up for Trent Richardson.

Everybody and their mother has been mocking a Guard and a CB to the Bengals in the 1st......What happens if both David DeCastro and Cordy Glenn are gone by the time the Bengals pick? What if CB's like Claiborne, Kirkpatrick, and Jenkins/Gilmore are all gone? Will you see the Bengals reach for need? Possibly.

When do they address the other Safety position? Gamble in the 5th Rd again on another Robert Sands? I like Sands' potential, but they need a starter NOW, because Crocker cannot continue to start. The Bengals have AJ Green at WR, and........and......Maybe Jordan Shipley if he's healthy? Who else? Andrew Hawkins? The Bengals need a Strong #2 for a couple of reasons. #1 to help a 2nd year QB in Andy Dalton, and #2 to relieve some of the pressure off AJ Green. It's no secret, the entire NFL knows how good this kid is, so he'll be looking at a steady diet of double coverage all season long, and unless the Bengals find a reliable #2, Dalton's INT's are bound to go up trying to force it into a double or triple covered Green.

Again Skyline, I think you are pretty close on your assessment, just maybe a little more hoping and optimistic than I am about it.

[BengalPimp]

I guess I am just frustrated with how the Bengals continue to run the team in 2012, and the excuses they make about not spending money because "3 years from now" they have to worry about AJ Green and Andy Dalton's contracts....BULL F*CKIN SH*T !!! Well guess what? Expect more excuses next year, because "4 years" from now they will have to worry about re-signing the 2 1st Rd picks from this year, and if they are in fact a CB and a Guard, well, Free Agent CB's now get over $10 million a year and good Guards get $7 0r $8 million.....so c'mon ownership, pile on the excuses.......OR, hire some real NFL people who know how to manage/massage a Salary Cap.

[blueridge]

Is this idiot thread still going?

[HoosierCat]

Look, I didn't want to go all "Tampa Bay Crazy" in Free Agency, but just one significant signing could have made a world of difference. A Guard like Ben Grubbs or Carl Nicks wouldn't have crippled this team's Cap, BUT it would have free'd up one of the 1st Rd picks to use on a WR like Michael Floyd, or a Safety like Mark Barron for example. Or possibly trade up for Trent Richardson.

I begin to wonder if their focus on mid-tier and bargain-basement FAs doesn't make it difficult to execute the "Bengals fomula" to build through the draft as well.

I was reading Hensley's piece of the Ravens today and this part stuck in my head:

The Ravens are more like a college team than an NFL one in how they handle personnel. When they lose someone in free agency, they act like the player graduated and they plug in another one of general manager Ozzie Newsome's recruits, eh, I mean draft picks.

Rookie wide receiver Torrey Smith (second-round pick) replaced Mason. Second-year tight end Ed Dickson (third round) stepped in for Heap. Second-year nose tackle Terrence Cody (second round) moved into Gregg's spot. And Lardarius Webb (third round) and Cary Williams (signed off the Titans' practice squad) became the surprising starters at cornerback.

He goes on to talk about how picks like Paul Kruger and Jah Reid will pick up the slack (hopefully) for FAs lost this year. I think that's a credible definition of building through the draft -- but it certainly isn't what the Bengals have done lately. Instead, they've turned to FA to replace lost talent.

JJ leaves? The sign FA Clements.

Rucker and Fanene leave? They sign FAs Anderson and Harvey.

Ced Ben is let go? They sign FA BJGE.

Nate Livings leaves? They sign FA Travelle Wharton.

Rivers is lost to injury? They sign FA Thomas Howard.

Dhani is let go and Rey moves to MLB? They sign FA Manny Lawson at SSLB.

But since all the FAs are older guys, or guys who have washed out, they are mostly short-term solutions. So the Bengals are constantly looking to the draft not just for depth (which could create the kind of cycle the Ravens are supposed to be on) but for starters, and those guys are rushed in ASAP. OTOH, while you might have to "overpay" for a Carl Nicks type, you get a young guy you can plug in for 5-10 years and give yourself the luxury of time to bring up a draft pick eventually to replace him.

[skyline]

But since all the FAs are older guys, or guys who have washed out, they are mostly short-term solutions...

That doesn't seem quite right. Reggie Nelson wasn't a short term solution. Lawson and Howard both have some tread left on them and are still around. Ellis is quite young. The two d-linemen they picked up this year are still quite young, so here's hoping they pan out.

Yes, there are some older/end of their career guys in there as well, but that's how it goes. It helps to have seasoned veterans in the mix as well.

[HoosierCat]

But since all the FAs are older guys, or guys who have washed out, they are mostly short-term solutions...

That doesn't seem quite right.

Yeah, I know. I'm groping toward something and I haven't quite gotten my hands around it. The Bengals always seem to have lots of holes, and whether via the draft or free agency, they always seem to be looking outside to fill them. Is it poor drafting? Is it failure to pursue FAs who could lock down spots? Is it just that establishing a stable foundation that produces a long-term competitive team like, say, Pitt, boils down to luck? I think you can make a case for any of these. My gut tells me it's a mix: good drafts, smart FA moves, and luck. For the FA portion, the question is, is it smarter to play the averages (which the Bengals seem to have favored) or go for a few big strikes?

[ct_bengal]

You can't say whether free agency was good or bad until the pads go on. Then you can complain about who looks bad and who doesn't.

Personally I don't think Fanene or Rucker is as big of a loss as people are making it out to be, they were rarely healthy. The defense in 2009 was light years better than 2011 (and played a tougher sched) and neither played huge roles then. Geno Atkins is the reason they were able to take advantage of their opportunities and someone who's hungry (and healthy) can fill in the rotation void.

Sims on the other hand makes a world of difference on the bengals front, so much better when he's healthy.

[BengalPimp]

. The defense in 2009 was light years better than 2011 (and played a tougher sched) and neither played huge roles then.

But Fanene was 2nd on the team with 6.0 sacks in 2009......that's a pretty big role.

A healthy Fanene is a damn good Fanene.....all I'm saying.