Bring back a Retro Defense

[Spor_tees]

I was thinking about the roster and how Marvin likes to bring in guys that can play hybrid positions. What if the Bengals sometimes implemented a version of the 4-6 defense made famous by Buddy Ryan and the 1985 Bears? If they can get him up to speed, Taylor Mays would be a great Strong Safety for this defense. Carlos Dunlap would be a great Richard Dent type as well. I just don't know if Rey could be as good a leader as Singletary was to get all the guys in the right positions every play.

[HairOnFire]

I confess there are times when I ask myself whether it would be more satisfying to punch Mike Zimmer in the throat OR simply kick him in the balls until he stops spouting coachspeak.

1 minute ago - by Paul Dehner Jr. - Bengals' DC not ready to make Dunlap an every-down guy

Defensive coordinator Mike Zimmer isn't ready to play second-year DE Carlos Dunlap (9.5 sacks) every down. Dunlap's nagging injuries reinforced that. "It’s kind of up to him," Zimmer said. "You can’t miss three weeks of camp and be a regular-down guy. The way he practiced at the beginning (of camp), maybe, but it was for like, four days."

[Spor_tees]

I confess there are times when I ask myself whether it would be more satisfying to punch Mike Zimmer in the throat OR simply kick him in the balls until he stops spouting coachspeak.

1 minute ago - by Paul Dehner Jr. - Bengals' DC not ready to make Dunlap an every-down guy

Defensive coordinator Mike Zimmer isn't ready to play second-year DE Carlos Dunlap (9.5 sacks) every down. Dunlap's nagging injuries reinforced that. "It’s kind of up to him," Zimmer said. "You can’t miss three weeks of camp and be a regular-down guy. The way he practiced at the beginning (of camp), maybe, but it was for like, four days."

So basically that's saying that Dunlap is in Zimmer's 'doghouse' because he isn't practicing like Zimmer thinks he should be? Sounds like an argument that had on here with someone about how Dunlap was treated last year, but they refused the fact that Dunlap was ever on bad terms with the coaches.

Frankly I am stumped about how the best way to treat this situation should be. On one hand, you want your best players on the field every play, but on the other hand you need to instill discipline in them. How can teammates respect the coaches and Dunlap if he lollygags it at practice yet gets to play on Sunday, yet he will be the better guy to help the team when on Sundays?

I think the coaches need to handle this internally first off. Embarrassing Dunlap in the media is only going to create more of a rift. I also think they needed to punish him at practice and in fact do like they do with the kickers, make him responsible for extra practice for the whole team if he screws up. After a few days of an extra 30 minutes of sprints and someone (a team captain) will put their foot in his butt and it won't happen again.

I just think it is sad to see so much wasted talent. I don't know if it is just his personality, or if it was a sense of entitlement that was inbred in him while growing up because of his athletic abilities, but it is a shame. Hopefully this will get fixed soon before it gets out of hand.

[derekshank]

I confess there are times when I ask myself whether it would be more satisfying to punch Mike Zimmer in the throat OR simply kick him in the balls until he stops spouting coachspeak.

1 minute ago - by Paul Dehner Jr. - Bengals' DC not ready to make Dunlap an every-down guy

Defensive coordinator Mike Zimmer isn't ready to play second-year DE Carlos Dunlap (9.5 sacks) every down. Dunlap's nagging injuries reinforced that. "It’s kind of up to him," Zimmer said. "You can’t miss three weeks of camp and be a regular-down guy. The way he practiced at the beginning (of camp), maybe, but it was for like, four days."

So basically that's saying that Dunlap is in Zimmer's 'doghouse' because he isn't practicing like Zimmer thinks he should be?

This has nothing to do with a doghouse or how Dunlap practices.

Dunlap has been injured the entire preseason. Zimmer isn't saying anything negative about Dunlap ability or his practicing habits. He's saying he's injured, and that he's not going to just hand the starting job to someone who hasn't been able to earn it in practice.

If people disagree with Zimmer's opinion... that's fine. Because I think Dunlap ought to start as well. But don't make s**t up. Zimmer didn't say what you're implying.

[Spor_tees]

Derek, don't kid yourself, because I know you can read through the 'coach speak' just as well as me, Hair, or anybody on this message board. Zimmer is calling out Dunlap for A. his toughness and B. his desire to practice. Zimmer is saying the same argument as from last year, if you don't practice like a starter, then you aren't going to play like a starter.

There aren't any brown logs being made out of this situation.

[volcom69]

Im not worried about this at all, Dunlap is going to get his snaps and it will be alot of them. In ways i want to see Dunlap do it for another year, or wait till the middle of the year before he is the starter. Geathers was the same way he was really good that one year then after that sucked, well he still plays good against the run though. So dont worry he is going to get a ton of snaps, i think the d-line will rotate alot this year, alot of good depth

[derekshank]

Derek, don't kid yourself, because I know you can read through the 'coach speak' just as well as me, Hair, or anybody on this message board. Zimmer is calling out Dunlap for A. his toughness and B. his desire to practice. Zimmer is saying the same argument as from last year, if you don't practice like a starter, then you aren't going to play like a starter.

There aren't any brown logs being made out of this situation.

Zimmer is poking at Dunlap for toughness. That is not out of character for him.

But it's a stretch to say Dunlap is in Zimmer's doghouse or that Zimmer is intentionally limiting Dunlap to "teach him a lesson" about practicing hard.

All Zimmer is saying is that Dunlap hasn't proven he's a 3-down player yet. His role will stay the same until he can demonstrate he deserves to play more than just passing downs. And it's hard to demonstrate that while nursing an injury.

[Spor_tees]

Derek, don't kid yourself, because I know you can read through the 'coach speak' just as well as me, Hair, or anybody on this message board. Zimmer is calling out Dunlap for A. his toughness and B. his desire to practice. Zimmer is saying the same argument as from last year, if you don't practice like a starter, then you aren't going to play like a starter.

There aren't any brown logs being made out of this situation.

Zimmer is poking at Dunlap for toughness. That is not out of character for him.

But it's a stretch to say Dunlap is in Zimmer's doghouse or that Zimmer is intentionally limiting Dunlap to "teach him a lesson" about practicing hard.

All Zimmer is saying is that Dunlap hasn't proven he's a 3-down player yet. His role will stay the same until he can demonstrate he deserves to play more than just passing downs. And it's hard to demonstrate that while nursing an injury.

So now you are back pedaling a bit...just a few more steps and you will eventually fall into it, the truth.

Coaches and front offices generally hate it when players air out their dirty laundry in the media. This is something I will say Marvin Lewis is good about. He should be a politician, he never gives up information no matter how many words he uses. For Zimmer to make a quote like he did to the media about a young guy like Dunlap, who probably already has some kind of ego problem based on his pre-draft write-ups, I think will do more harm than good. I just don't want to see a rift made that makes it so that Dunlap won't embrace his full potential in a Bengals uniform.

[derekshank]

Yeah. I'm sure the guy who got 9.5 sacks in half of a season has self esteem issues.

The coaches have not been shy about it. They have said from day one that Dunlap has to improve to be more than a situational pass-rusher. That doesn't mean he's in a doghouse or that the coaches are sabotaging the success of the team just to stick it to him.

All his quote means is that because of an injury that kept Dunlap out for the majority of the pre-season, Dunlap has not yet earned a greater role on this defense. Quit trying to create drama.

[Spor_tees]

Yeah. I'm sure the guy who got 9.5 sacks in half of a season has self esteem issues.

The coaches have not been shy about it. They have said from day one that Dunlap has to improve to be more than a situational pass-rusher. That doesn't mean he's in a doghouse or that the coaches are sabotaging the success of the team just to stick it to him.

All his quote means is that because of an injury that kept Dunlap out for the majority of the pre-season, Dunlap has not yet earned a greater role on this defense. Quit trying to create drama.

I'm not creating any drama here, in fact the total opposite. I think if Zimmer had handled it better than maybe things would have been resolved long ago. Let's look at what he said once again:

"It’s kind of up to him," Zimmer said. "You can’t miss three weeks of camp and be a regular-down guy. The way he practiced at the beginning (of camp), maybe, but it was for like, four days."

"It's kinda up to him," sounds like Zimmer is saying that it's not the injuries that is keeping him out, but instead his toughness. "You can't miss three weeks of camp and be a regular-down guy," well once again it sounds like Dunlap's work ethic is being brought into question. This is an issue that Dunlap fought against in college and last year as a rookie. "The way he practiced at the beginning (of camp), maybe, but it was for like, four days," right there says it all. If you can't see what Zimmer is pointing at right there than you couldn't see Pam Anderson's breast with a telescope. He is flat out saying Dunlap has the talent to be the man, and play 3 downs, but he only tried hard at the beginning of training camp, and once he got hurt, he kinda put things on cruise control assuming he had won a spot in the starting line-up.

As far as the 9.5 sacks go, you are looking at those in a cup half full mentality. I look at those 9.5 sacks and wonder how many more he would have had, had he played earlier in the season. Could it have made a difference in any of the games? Could they have won more games? Who knows, and we never will, but I don know that something has to give here. They either need to fix Dunlap's unwillingness to practice, or they need to just let him play. Sitting one of your best players on the bench because you don't like the effort he puts forth in practice is hurting the team.

P.S. I didn't say self-esteem issues, I said ego problems. There is quite the difference between the two. His ego problem is his sense of entitlement that he thinks he is above doing what everyone else has to do. He is talented and it's good enough that he shows up, and he doesn't need to work at it. It probably started as a kid when he first started being good at sports and continued all the way through college.

[derekshank]

Breaking down Zimmer's quote phrase by phrase is exactly the s**t I'm talking about. You're reading way too much into it.

Look at it as a whole and take it at face value. Zimmer was asked when Dunlap would be a 3-down player. Zimmer's response? Well, he's been injured. He was practicing well at the beginning of camp... but now he's behind because he missed so much time.

No doghouse. No evil conspiracy. And no indication that Dunlap doesn't practice hard (Zimmer even said that Dunlap looked good early on). He's just making a statement that starting gigs aren't given away for free.

[HairOnFire]

No doghouse. No evil conspiracy. And no indication that Dunlap doesn't practice hard (Zimmer even said that Dunlap looked good early on). He's just making a statement that starting gigs aren't given away for free.

But that's just the thing. Starting jobs are given away for free all of the time.

Andy Dalton was just handed a starting QB gig on a tarnished silver platter. Jermain Gresham was named the Bengals new starter at TE on draft day. Jordan Shipley has never had to fight for playing time. But by the same token Carlos Dunlap has to fight for playing time despite being incredibly productive. Bernard Scott disappears for weeks at a time. And it takes years, not months, before a player like Rey is inserted into the MLB position he was drafted to fill.

Coaches spewing coachspeak is nothing new. In fact, it's commonplace. But sadly, so is the Bengals habit of not playing the best player available. For proof, just consider last season and how often Marvin Lewis apologized for not getting young players more snaps.

A team should play it's best players. Period.

[derekshank]

A team should play it's best players. Period.

I don't disagree with this statement. I'm merely arguing that the reason Dunlap isn't a "starter" is not because of some mythical doghouse he has found himself in.

As I've mentioned in other threads... I'd guess that every team's fanbase has similar complaints. I remember a few short years ago how fans destroyed the Steeler coaches for not allowing James Harrison to be on the field more often.

What were their reasons for giving Harrison a bit part rather than a staring role? Who knows? Perhaps there were holes in his game that only the coaching staff was aware of. Perhaps the situations they put him in maximized his strengths while hiding his weaknesses. Perhaps it took a number of years for Harrison to be a complete enough player to leap-frog those on the depth chart ahead of him.

Or... perhaps coaching staffs all across the NFL are full stubborn buffoons who don't recognize rare talent when they see it.

I imagine the truth falls somewhere in between those two extremes.

[HairOnFire]

A team should play it's best players. Period.

I don't disagree with this statement. I'm merely arguing that the reason Dunlap isn't a "starter" is not because of some mythical doghouse he has found himself in.

I get that. I also get the part about the Sportster reading too much into the things said. And maybe that's what I'm doing as well. But Zimmer's remarks felt too familiar for comfort.

Because we've heard this crap before, haven't we? Specifically, we heard it during the first half of last season, only a few weeks before the Bengals coaches admitted their mistakes. And because they admitted their mistakes I'm probably not guilty of reading too much into the things being said now, right?

Right?

Play the man. He's a f**king joy to watch, highly productive, and far more disciplined than the less productive Michael Johnson, a very promising young player whose work ethic and practice habits never seem to be as openly criticized as Dunlaps.

Stop f**king with Carlos Dunlap.

[derekshank]

Play the man. He's a f**king joy to watch, highly productive, and far more disciplined than the less productive Michael Johnson, a very promising young player whose work ethic and practice habits never seem to be as openly criticized as Dunlap's.

He's going to play. And he'll play a lot.

You're argument appears to be that he's already a complete DE, and superior to those ahead of him on the depth chart. Perhaps you are right, and I don't claim to have broken down every play... but I haven't witnessed him being terribly stout against the run.

Zimmer's comments seem to indicate that he was showing improvement in this area... but a couple days of training camp practice apparently wasn't enough to unseat Geathers, who might suck as a pass-rusher - but is damn fine against the run.

[HairOnFire]

You're argument appears to be that he's already a complete DE, and superior to those ahead of him on the depth chart.

No, my argument is that he's a different type of DE....which you quickly agreed with.

Furthermore, I think Dunlap's production and college repuation as a so-called "gamer" should be enough to keep Zimmer from offering deliberately vaque criticisms of Dunlap by way of the media. Obviously, that hasn't happened. Worse, when it happened before the end result was Lewis and Zimmer admitting their mistakes.

As for Dunlap himself, lets just say he had a far better season than his critics enjoyed.

Finally, I do agree Dunlap will play plenty when the bullets start to fly....which is the very thing that makes Zimmer's remarks both hollow and unneccessary. Even worse, Zimmer's frustratingly familiar remarks make him sound like the slow learner, not Dunlap.

[derekshank]

You're argument appears to be that he's already a complete DE, and superior to those ahead of him on the depth chart.

No, my argument is that he's a different type of DE....which you quickly agreed with.

Furthermore, I think Dunlap's production and college repuation as a so-called "gamer" should be enough to keep Zimmer from offering deliberately vaque criticisms of Dunlap by way of the media. Obviously, that hasn't happened. Worse, when it happened before the end result was Lewis and Zimmer admitting their mistakes.

As for Dunlap himself, lets just say he had a far better season than his critics enjoyed.

Finally, I do agree Dunlap will play plenty when the bullets start to fly....which is the very thing that makes Zimmer's remarks both hollow and unneccessary. Even worse, Zimmer's frustratingly familiar remarks make him sound like the slow learner, not Dunlap.

It sounds to me like we're agreeing.

[volcom69]

You guys are acting as if Dunlap is not going to play, he is going to get a bunch of snaps, and when the year goes on and he proves himself then i think he will get in the starting role.

Once again i ask what happened to Geathers after his big year, they made him a starter and he has never been the same, so i dont blame Zimmer for not wanting to play him right away, see how he does here in the begining of the year and go from there. If he is as good as everyone thinks, then he should be getting to the QB alot, and that will show.

[derekshank]

You guys are acting as if Dunlap is not going to play

Who is?

Most of the contributors to this thread have openly stated we expect Dunlap to play... and play a lot.

Once again i ask what happened to Geathers after his big year, they made him a starter and he has never been the same.

I know what you're trying to say... but it doesn't apply. Geathers has nowhere near the talent that Dunlap has.