Walker: Bengals to Start Extension Talks with Hall Soon

[HoosierCat]

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/6870164/leon-hall-cincinnati-bengals-discuss-extension-source-says

The Cincinnati Bengals will soon begin contract negotiations with starting cornerback Leon Hall, a source familiar with the situation told ESPN.com. Hall is entering the final year of his rookie deal and is scheduled to become an unrestricted free agent in 2012.

My bet is that talks go nowhere but we shall see.

[ArmyBengal]

So leaving Hall's ability out of the scenario for a minute and riddle me this.

Why the hell would Hall want to stay in Cincinnati and play for a Bengals team that is, by ALL appearance, is completely inept ??

If he stays, it's only for the money. At the end of that contract, he will leave stating how he really would like to win a championship.

[ArmyBengal]

Oh yeah, the Bengals have to make this happen.

You can't have back to back first round picks leave one year after the next and think you have a good thing going in building through the draft.

[HoosierCat]

Oh yeah, the Bengals have to make this happen.

The trouble is, doing so will mean blowing Hall away. He knows CBs are always in high demand in free agency and that, based on what JJoe and Nnamadi got, he's looking at $9-12 million/year on the open market, if not more. So unless the Bengals put a blockbuster deal on the table, he's got little incentive to sign. And making big offers while they're "competing with themselves" isn't the Bengals' style.

I'm still betting that Hall's a goner in 2012. Hopefully the Bengals will prove me wrong.

[walzav29]

Maybe I'm wrong about the new CBA but they could franchise him and he could blow his knee out. Guys prefer long term deal because of the security. Even Bengal players sign them. I mean what's he gonna do? Retire? Who in the world would do that? (sarcasm)

[Kazkal]

Hall has plenty incentive to sign because if he has a Career ending injury he gets nothing.

So aslong as they Approach him before season's over theres plenty of reason for him too...Now if they wait until season is over he has no reason.

[HairOnFire]

Oh yeah, the Bengals have to make this happen.

The trouble is, doing so will mean blowing Hall away. He knows CBs are always in high demand in free agency and that, based on what JJoe and Nnamadi got, he's looking at $9-12 million/year on the open market, if not more. So unless the Bengals put a blockbuster deal on the table, he's got little incentive to sign.

Well, if Hall keeps playing like he has of late what incentive do the Bengals have to offer any contract, let alone a blockbuster deal?

I'm not joking.

Explain to me why the Bengals have to make this happen? Or better yet, explain to me why blowing Hall away with a blockbuster contract offer is preferrable to drafting a new 1st or 2nd round CB for a fraction of the cost?

[HoosierCat]

Well, if Hall keeps playing like he has of late what incentive do the Bengals have to offer any contract, let alone a blockbuster deal?

I'm not joking.

I wouldn't suggest you are. And I agree: if Hall is playing well, it's unlikely the Bengals re-sign him -- and if he plays poorly, it's almost certain they don't. Either way, Hall will probably think he can get more in March, and he'll probably be right

Or better yet, explain to me why blowing Hall away with a blockbuster contract offer is preferrable to drafting a new 1st or 2nd round CB for a fraction of the cost?

I suspect the Bengals will be looking hard at CB early next April whether Hall is here or not. JJoe is gone, Pacman is injury-prone and Clements is an aging stopgap.

[BengalByTheBay]

Well, if Hall keeps playing like he has of late what incentive do the Bengals have to offer any contract, let alone a blockbuster deal?

I'm not joking.

I wouldn't suggest you are. And I agree: if Hall is playing well, it's unlikely the Bengals re-sign him -- and if he plays poorly, it's almost certain they don't. Either way, Hall will probably think he can get more in March, and he'll probably be right

I, for one, disagree. Getting toasted a couple of times in the first preseason game didn't make any of us feel all warm & cuddly, but it doesn't change Hall's "body of work" - to use an already vastly overused phrase. Hall's value should be based on how he's played overall since he's been here. I don't see the Lions game as proof of much of anything regarding his ability. If, looking at his history, the Bengals don't think he's worth too much, that should dictate their negotiation. If they truly want to keep him, however, now is the best time to get a deal done. It only gets tougher sledding from here.

If anything, him stumbling out of the gate should dictate the Bengals make an offer now unless (as mentioned above) they just don't think he's that good. In my personal opinion, keeping Hall has to rank as a top priority as far as what can be accomplished looking past this season.

[ArmyBengal]

Good teams not only draft well, but keep the players that play well for them beyond their rookie contracts. I know other teams that have been letting go their first round picks as of late (Gholston for the Jets, Maybin for the Bills) but you can't put Hall in that category and it seems like the Bengals let these guys go or they just leave in not wanting to be here.

For a team that is dead set on being a "Build through the draft" kind of team it baffles me on how they either draft poorly or are unable to keep the players that do well for them. Then they sit back and make comments like, "You don't know how hard it is to run an NFL team". Well holy sh*t me to tears.

Do they need to blow Hall out of the water ?? No, but that wasn't my thought. Do they need to pay him market value and is he worth it ??

I think so, but they will probably take the wait and see approach and end up on the short end. Par for the course.

Fans will chalk it up to, "He was never that good to begin with".

[HairOnFire]

I suspect the Bengals will be looking hard at CB early next April whether Hall is here or not. JJoe is gone, Pacman is injury-prone and Clements is an aging stopgap.

You're kinda make my point for me. The new rookie pay scale and slotting system will alllow teams like the Bengals to target positions in the draft that are too expensive to fill by ANY other means. And IMHO that means positions like CB could and should be addressed regardless of how well Hall is playing, but would be especially true if he were struggling. And he is.

And he has.

So again, knowing all of that to be true why is retaining Leon Hall a must do? Why would the Bengals bother making an offer that blows Hall away when not only could they easily draft a younger cheaper BETTER player?

[ArmyBengal]

DE, DT, OG, OT

All of which are also difficult to grab (moneywise) in free agency and all of which are a combined bunch of suck for the Bengals.

How about we just let every vet leave and start over. God knows Mike Brown would love that thought.

Get rid of the guys due to make 10's of millions per year and draft a replacement that costs nothing.

Then again, there's that whole spending up to 95% of the cap thing that gets in the way.

D*MN.

[HairOnFire]

Do they need to blow Hall out of the water ?? No, but that wasn't my thought. Do they need to pay him market value and is he worth it ??

I think so, but they will probably take the wait and see approach and end up on the short end. Par for the course.

Fans will chalk it up to, "He was never that good to begin with".

I disagree. Mostly because I'm not hearing very many voices claiming Hall isn't that good. Rather, what I'm hearing is fan after fan after fan saying Hall has to be kept next season regardless of performance.

That's f**ked up.

[ArmyBengal]

I've never said Hall should be kept regardless of performance.

What I think is:

Hall is very much worth market value for a CB and should be kept as long as he continues to perform at that level.

If he doesn't, then sure, but I don't think that will be the case.

What I hear is fan after fan thinking he's not a good enough CB for the Bengals to keep and again, I disagree.

Then those same people wonder why money isn't being spent when they are 25 million under the cap.

We all know they aren't going after a free agent signing that would eat up space, so where to spend ??

[HairOnFire]

How about we just let every vet leave and start over. God knows Mike Brown would love that thought.

It's a fairly common thought shared by most GM's who are faced with rebuilding a team.

That said, I think it's pretty obvious that I'm not suggesting the Bengals allow every veteran to leave whenever they're able to. But by the same token it should be just as obvious that in any debate about the wisdom of retaining Leon Hall...(wait for it)....his actual level of performance should be a fairly significant part of the festivities.

So who wants to be the first to defend the performance Hall just gave against Detroit? Who wants to be the first to suggest that performances like that are worthy of a blockbuster contract offer? Who wants to explain to me why retaining an underperforming Leon Hall is a must do?

Point blank, if Hall doesn't improve and return to the form he once had I'm not going to want him back this season or the next. And if a rookie could do his job better and more cheaply you shouldn't want him back either.

[HoosierCat]

Why would the Bengals bother making an offer that blows Hall away when not only could they easily draft a younger cheaper BETTER player?

Because they've already got one CB hole to fill before we even start talking about Hall. And of course there's still safety x2, SSLB, running back, No. 2 wideout, the whole interior of the o-line and that guy at RT whose option they apparently won't pick up whose slots are all candidates for a high pick next April as well. It's a recipe for a return to the perpetual rebuild.

[HairOnFire]

It's a recipe for a return to the perpetual rebuild.

And that reality changes simply by giving an underperforming player more money than he's worth?

Listen to yourselves. None of you are making a case for Hall based upon his recent level of play. Rather, you're all making a case for giving him a buttload of money simply because there's going to be a buttload of money available.

[HairOnFire]

Because they've already got one CB hole to fill before we even start talking about Hall. And of course there's still safety x2, SSLB, running back, No. 2 wideout, the whole interior of the o-line and that guy at RT whose option they apparently won't pick up whose slots are all candidates for a high pick next April as well.

Kinda stretching things, aren't you?

The Bengals and most of the NFL have devalued almost all of the positions you now claim are candidates for a high draft pick, including both safety posiions, all interior offensive line positions, the RB position, and most LB roles. To be fair, the Bengals have shown a greater willingness to spend a high pick on ORT, and their willingness to churn and burn a ridiculous number of WR prospects is well documented. I could very easily imagine plenty of scenarios where this team tosses another high draft pick at the WR position. But by the same token,the last time Mike Brown was faced with finding a new CB in FA he quickly withdrew himself into a fetal position before drafting a pair of 1st round corners. So why not double dip again? Wouldn't it be possible to draft two CB's back-to-back in the first two rounds for less than you're demanding they offer Hall?

[Walrus]

How about we just let every vet leave and start over. God knows Mike Brown would love that thought.

It's a fairly common thought shared by most GM's who are faced with rebuilding a team.

That said, I think it's pretty obvious that I'm not suggesting the Bengals allow every veteran to leave whenever they're able to. But by the same token it should be just as obvious that in any debate about the wisdom of retaining Leon Hall...(wait for it)....his actual level of performance should be a fairly significant part of the festivities.

So who wants to be the first to defend the performance Hall just gave against Detroit? Who wants to be the first to suggest that performances like that are worthy of a blockbuster contract offer? Who wants to explain to me why retaining an underperforming Leon Hall is a must do?

Point blank, if Hall doesn't improve and return to the form he once had I'm not going to want him back this season or the next. And if a rookie could do his job better and more cheaply you shouldn't want him back either.

I'll give it a shot. Hall is a hard-nosed veteran with near-elite abilities at a position where there just are not very many elite players. On top of that, he is young, has good character and has managed to be one of few players on this D who is not chronically injured. He deserves a contract offer >/= the contract JJ signed in Houston. I'm pretty confident the Bengals will give him that.

[Walrus]

Why would the Bengals bother making an offer that blows Hall away when not only could they easily draft a younger cheaper BETTER player?

Because they've already got one CB hole to fill before we even start talking about Hall. And of course there's still safety x2, SSLB, running back, No. 2 wideout, the whole interior of the o-line and that guy at RT whose option they apparently won't pick up whose slots are all candidates for a high pick next April as well. It's a recipe for a return to the perpetual rebuild.

I agree. Hall is solid. Remember, he was 1/2 of the "best CB tandem" in the league in 2009. He's not over the hill and there's no reason to think he won't continue to be solid, esp if they can again pair him with a faster cover corner-type.

[Walrus]

Because they've already got one CB hole to fill before we even start talking about Hall. And of course there's still safety x2, SSLB, running back, No. 2 wideout, the whole interior of the o-line and that guy at RT whose option they apparently won't pick up whose slots are all candidates for a high pick next April as well.

Kinda stretching things, aren't you?

The Bengals and most of the NFL have devalued almost all of the positions you now claim are candidates for a high draft pick, including both safety posiions, all interior offensive line positions, the RB position, and most LB roles. To be fair, the Bengals have shown a greater willingness to spend a high pick on ORT, and their willingness to churn and burn a ridiculous number of WR prospects is well documented. I could very easily imagine plenty of scenarios where this team tosses another high draft pick at the WR position. But by the same token,the last time Mike Brown was faced with finding a new CB in FA he quickly withdrew himself into a fetal position before drafting a pair of 1st round corners. So why not double dip again? Wouldn't it be possible to draft two CB's back-to-back in the first two rounds for less than you're demanding they offer Hall?

It's amazing Mike was able to find Nate Clements' phone number from the fetal position.

[HairOnFire]

I agree. Hall is solid. Remember, he was 1/2 of the "best CB tandem" in the league in 2009. He's not over the hill and there's no reason to think he won't continue to be solid, esp if they can again pair him with a faster cover corner-type.

Well which is it? In the prior post you claimed Hall is near-elite. One post later he's described as a solid guy who should be fine for several more seasons as long as he's eventually paired with...(cough)....another near-elite CB.

That's some mighty faint praise, if you ask me.

Look, nobody has to sell me on Leon Hall. Prior to him being drafted I pimped him louder than any of you. In fact, when other posters claimed Hall was too slow to play CB in the NFL I correctly predicted he'd run an outstanding 40. So I already know he's faster than most of you think. More importantly, when Hall is right I think he's instinctive as hell. But for more than a year now none of us has seen the type of player I once pimped, and we didn't see him again last week when Detroit treated Hall like he was the most easily exploitable defender in the Bengals defense.

And yeah, that's saying something.

[HoosierCat]

Kinda stretching things, aren't you?

Not at all. Are you really going to argue that no teams take safeties, guards, linebackers, tackles, running backs and wide receivers in the first two rounds? I would gently suggest a review of recent drafts might refute that.

Wouldn't it be possible to draft two CB's back-to-back in the first two rounds for less than you're demanding they offer Hall?

Sure it's possible. It's also possible that it would be supremely stupid.

Rather, you're all making a case for giving him a buttload of money simply because there's going to be a buttload of money available.

Well, given that it's the players' money and all we're really talking about is whether player x or player y gets it, and that the Bengals have pretty much zero big money players right now, throwing a bunch of coin at Hall hardly seems like a major risk.

[Walrus]

I agree. Hall is solid. Remember, he was 1/2 of the "best CB tandem" in the league in 2009. He's not over the hill and there's no reason to think he won't continue to be solid, esp if they can again pair him with a faster cover corner-type.

Well which is it? In the prior post you claimed Hall is near-elite. One post later he's described as a solid guy who should be fine for several more seasons as long as he's eventually paired with...(cough)....another near-elite CB.

That's some mighty faint praise, if you ask me.

Look, nobody has to sell me on Leon Hall. Prior to him being drafted I pimped him louder than any of you. In fact, when other posters claimed Hall was too slow to play CB in the NFL I correctly predicted he'd run an outstanding 40. So I already know he's faster than most of you think. More importantly, when Hall is right I think he's instinctive as hell. But for more than a year now none of us has seen the type of player I once pimped, and we didn't see him again last week when Detroit treated Hall like he was the most easily exploitable defender in the Bengals defense.

And yeah, that's saying something.

Ok, you got me. I was being somewhat understated in calling him merely "solid". I think he's exceptional. Not "elite", in that he does not possess the coverage skills held by so-called "shut down" corners in the league. Even at his best, he struggles in covering the fastest receivers. He always has. Fine. So he's not Darelle Revis. But he covers everyone else, he's huge in run support, physical, forces fumbles, works hard, is smart. And what's more, he's well-liked by the coaches and has been the one constant on a DB unit that has been the strength of the Defense over the past 4 seasons.

I'm confident the team will give him a very generous contract to keep him here.

[redsbengalsbucks]

I always thought Joseph was the better CB when healthy, he and Hall made a good tandem. Hall needs to step up and become that elite CB that some here think he is, all I have seen is above average most of the time and complete toast some of the time.

If the Bengals throw a butload of cash his way, he will more than likely dissapoint the very same posters hoping the team does exactly that.

Hope I'm wrong, but I watched almost all of his college games at UM and have caught most of his pro games, he is not an elite CB.