T.O. Chimes In

[ArmyBengal]

So, I made a post in the game thread about how little there has been about T.O. and then I ventured over to PFT and found this nugget.

I was going to mention how little there was regarding T.O. in the game and the lack of conversation about the shoe incident.

Now we have him stiring the pot a little bit.

Here are some blurbs:

About Favre missing camps and underwhelming in week #1:

"When it comes to us we're held to another standard which is not in a positive light when it comes to the media, so I think . . . when it comes to skin color I think it does have something to do with it," Owens said.

About Sanchez and his week #1:

"If they're gonna put him on a platform like that, if they're gonna make him the next Joe Namath, so to speak, then he has to come out there and he has to perform on a weekly basis," Owens said. "I expected a lot more out of Sanchez myself."

And last but not least, his nickname for Revis and Cromartie after their week #1 performance:

Ren and Stimpy.

The whole article can be found here:
/>http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/09/16/to-has-more-to-say-about-favre-takes-aim-at-sanchez/

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

TO's problem is that, even when he's right, he doesn't know how to say things that get the point across without making himself look like a d-bag. Sort of like a retarded Cassandra in that way.

Like the bit about Favre, how none of the announcers connected his lack of training camp preparation to his obvious disconnect with his receivers. I thought the same and couldn't believe the announcers ignored it. So why does Fav-ray get away with it and not TO? It ain't because he's white - it's because he built up 15 years of positive stories that he still gets the benefit of the doubt, even as he attempts to destroy his legacy.

He's also right about Sanchez. Prove something in the league before wearing the crown. Problem is, it's not Sanchez who's asking for the royal treatment, so so TO still just misses the mark.

Best thing TO could do is just shut up, play, and leave the thinking for those with more mental horsepower.

[cHaD711Johnson]

Race definitely has a factor. It's just a subject that people usually aren't willing to talk about. When a poll is released of the most disliked guys in Sports and at least the Top 6 guys are black that definitely shows that there is an issue with race IMO.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Race definitely has a factor. It's just a subject that people usually aren't willing to talk about. When a poll is released of the most disliked guys in Sports and at least the Top 6 guys are black that definitely shows that there is an issue with race IMO.

Most athletes in the most popular sports are black. So most of the disliked athletes should also be black. Statistics fail.

[redsbengalsbucks]

Race definitely has a factor. It's just a subject that people usually aren't willing to talk about. When a poll is released of the most disliked guys in Sports and at least the Top 6 guys are black that definitely shows that there is an issue with race IMO.

Wrong that proves that the most disliked athletes are black, not that there is a race issue. Lord Favre is in my top three and so is Carpenter(SP for the Cards), but Ray Lewis is by far number 1. I must have a race problem with white guys that can throw a ball hard.

Get over the race card crap, 10-20 years ago maybe, but it is long gone now days.

As MLK stated, look at the character of a man, not the color of his skin.

[HairOnFire]

Race definitely has a factor.

Maybe. Perhaps probably. But one of the reasons I think Favre gets a media pass is because of the position he plays. And lets not forget that he was a media favorite for more than a decade before his diva act surfaced. That said, I don't really think he's getting a pass from the media because plenty of sources have commented on his poor play being the direct result of his staged late arrival. That he gets a pass from SOME sources is expected and hardly worth noting.

As for the players who appear on the list....

Vick killed dogs for fun and profit. No further expanation required. Owens and Chad are viewed as ego-crazed individualists in a team oriented sport. And the hatred that inspires isn't based upon pure speculation either as Chad has admitted to tanking a season and Owens has admitted his early career is all but defined by his immature attacks on his own QB's and coaches. Lebron just trashed his popuarity, not by leaving a team, but in the manner he left. As for Tiger, I don't fully understand why he's become a hated figure. Granted, he cheated on his rather stunning wife with some flea infested strange, but that's hardly the stuff of shock anymore. So not only don't I hate him...I'd give him a pass.

Who did I forget?

[cHaD711Johnson]

What about Brett Favre and Roger Clemens. You'd think that they'd find themselves on this list above quite a few guys. The fact that they wouldn't be above Chad Johnson on this list is laughable. It may not be a race issue, and I could be completely wrong. However, it is something interesting to look at IMO.

[ArmyBengal]

So if we agree with that list, does that mean we are racists ??

I would create my "most hated" list based on if I think said player is an assh*le, regardless of what color they are. Looking at that list compiled, I would think they got it right. Tiger gets a pass in my book. Add Favre and I'm cool with that.

[cHaD711Johnson]

I think that it's a media construct more than anything. I'm not suggesting that you would be a racist to agree with the list.

[ArmyBengal]

Didn't mean to suggest that YOU were suggesting that in the least. More of a general question had someone in fact suggested that.

I just think some of those guys are assh*les. The fact they are black is beside the point to me.

Like I said, I think Favre is a bigger assh*le than all of the ones on that list.

[HairOnFire]

What about Brett Favre and Roger Clemens. You'd think that they'd find themselves on this list above quite a few guys.

No argument. Because you could add both of their names and get no complaint from me....especially Clemens. Same thing for Roethlisberger.

The fact that they wouldn't be above Chad Johnson on this list is laughable.

Not really. Much of the hatred directed towards Chad is based upon his Ochocinco persona and the fact that he's so high profile his act, which isn't appreciated by most, can hardly be avoided. By comparison, Roger Clemens is practically in hiding as he awaits the next storm coming his way. And the same goes for Lance Armstrong.

It may not be a race issue, and I could be completely wrong. However, it is something interesting to look at IMO.

I'm guessing you're more right than wrong. But there are other factors at play here that go beyond race including whether a polarizng athlete is high profile and how recently they've been in the news. And there's the rub because that miserable Ochocinco/Kardashian persona is never out of the news.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

What about Brett Favre and Roger Clemens. You'd think that they'd find themselves on this list above quite a few guys. The fact that they wouldn't be above Chad Johnson on this list is laughable. It may not be a race issue, and I could be completely wrong. However, it is something interesting to look at IMO.

Fav-ray has earned his free pass by being a media darling for 15 years. He's also media-savvy enough to spin his crap so it doesn't sound as narcissistic as it actually is. I'd be more interested in Little Ben.

Clemens may likely be on the list next year pending his current issues. Bonds and McGwire ate most of the heat for the steroids thing - Clemens hadn't been caught yet - and I think fans are numb to PED cheating now. It's not enough to hate a guy for anymore.

The 'most hated' lists seem to involve more disruptive, polarizing individuals - regardless of color, I think, by and large. Fans seem quite happy to hate the white guys too, if they're not clever enough to manipulate the media.

Note also that methodology will vary. Forbes has a top 10 with Al Davis and Jerry Jones as well as McGwire and Roethlisberger.

[HoosierCat]

I suspect that Favre's, TO's, Ocho's etc. reaction to the list would be something like this.

[BengalPimp]

Who did I forget?

You forgot Kobe and LeBron.

http://bleacherrepor...gures-are-black

LeBron I can understand, because it seems like he not only turned his back on his hometown, but completly Destroyed the Cavs franchise, by making them sign and trade for average/below average players with huge contracts thereby crippling the franchise for years to come. Then he proceeded to get a 1 Hour primetime special to tell everyone where he was going, when he could have just made a 1-minute announcement. Those wounds are still fresh for many.

Kobe, I don't get. I have to chalk that one up to just hate and jealousy. I can't believe people are still holding a grudge over the "alleged" rape that took place in Colorado, especially when the found like 3 different guys semen in her panties....She lied...Again, I don't really know why Kobe is on that list.

[HairOnFire]

Who did I forget?

You forgot Kobe and LeBron.

Actually, I mentioned Lebron. As for Kobe, I admit he's an odd duck with a flinty sort of personality that's hard to like, but I certainly don't hate him. In fact, I've got tons of respect for him, and my biggest complaint with him is based upon his wife and kids always being upfront when they're handing out championship trophies.

[ArmyBengal]

Kobe's hate probably comes from his hometown of Philly that has just filtered out from there as well.

I can't remember the whole deal, but there was some beef with his hometown...

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

As for Kobe, I admit he's an odd duck with a flinty sort of personality that's hard to like,

Hell of an understatement. There are a few reasons people don't like Kobe, and most of it predates his alleged sexual assault:

1) Laker. There are a lot of Laker fans, but a lot more haters.

2) Feuded with Shaq...and lost. Shaq is probably the most media-savvy NBA player of the last 20 years. He and Kobe clearly didn't get along, and Kobe was blamed for pushing Shaq out of town. That almost certainly wasn't true - Jerry Buss just didn't want to commit $30M/yr to an aging star who trains at In-N-Out burger - but by the time that was publicly known, the damage was done.

3) Terrible teammate, especially early. Kobe's been known to freeze teammates out, play passive aggressive games where he refuses to shoot (thereby demonstrating his importance), and go for his own shots above winning. He's grown out of that mostly, but the rep has stuck.

4) Even Phil Jackson had trouble with him. Phil's the Zen Master, so if Phil can't get to a guy, the thinking is he can't be gotten to. Again, this dates from Phil's first stint pre-2004, but reps stick.

5) The alleged assault - I think this served as a focal point for people to justify hating Kobe who already did.

6) Trying to be Jordan - Kobe's mimicking of Michael early in his career wasn't taken well - it was simultaneously presumptuous and pathetic.

7) No personality - as you say, he's 'flinty' at best. I'd say there's no real personality there, aside from whomever he's trying to be at that particular time. He wants to be respected and liked but tries too hard and it comes off as forced. Got some A-Rod in him that way. Your average fan doesn't like that.

but probably foremost,

8) He's the best player in the NBA. Period. Nobody cares about the sociopath coming off the bench.

Note that race is not necessary in the above explanation.

[derekshank]

As for Kobe... my biggest complaint with him is based upon his wife and kids always being upfront when they're handing out championship trophies.

Man... I wish the biggest knock on the Bengals peanut gallery was the method in which they received championship trophies.

Perhaps folks around here would be more chipper.

[HairOnFire]

Feuded with Shaq...and lost.

I say he won. You admit he lost in the media due to false information. And I'll add the bit about how that false perception further spread after Shaq won a title and declared the war was over. But it wasn't. Instead, it's Kobe who wears a champions ring(s) as well as the crown of King of Los Angeles....plus all of the trappings. By comparison, Shaq is now a bagman....one step away from gone.

No personality - as you say, he's 'flinty' at best. I'd say there's no real personality there, aside from whomever he's trying to be at that particular time.

I disagree. Kobe has plenty of personality. The problem is his personality isn't cuddly. More importantly, it isn't constant. Rather, it shifts with his mood. But he has matured tremendously and he's the strongest leader on a Lakers team that has won two out of the last three championships. And they might win more, right?

He's the best player in the NBA. Period. Nobody cares about the sociopath coming off the bench.

Actually, I prefer the angry scowling mostly silent sociopath over the clown shoe wearing and endlessly yapping diva. And like you say, he is the best player in the NBA. Period.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

I say he won. You admit he lost in the media due to false information. And I'll add the bit about how that false perception further spread after Shaq won a title and declared the war was over. But it wasn't. Instead, it's Kobe who wears a champions ring(s) as well as the crown of King of Los Angeles....plus all of the trappings. By comparison, Shaq is now a bagman....one step away from gone.

Yeah, I should have mentioned that he lost it in the media *then*. The media fell for the Shaq sob story and Kobe took a lot of heat for the breakup - especially when they didn't win. He has been devoting his life to winning that breakup ever since. And as of the last title, I'd say he has. Think how sad this is though - *Six years later* Kobe's relationship with Shaq still defines his own career.

I disagree. Kobe has plenty of personality. The problem is his personality isn't cuddly. More importantly, it isn't constant. Rather, it shifts with his mood. But he has matured tremendously and he's the strongest leader on a Lakers team that has won two out of the last three championships. And they might win more, right?

I don't think his personality varies much (over short durations) - I just think he (badly) tries to fake it sometimes. You'd see some awkward moments with teammates where he's trying to be 'one of the guys', and it just doesn't work. Too forced. He's mellowed with time, without a doubt, and in the last 2 years he sort of seems to 'get it'. And yes, it's clearly to the benefit of the team.

Originally I wondered what would happen this year, if he'd have the same motivation he did last year. Then they built a superteam in Miami, the Lakers get no pub, and that question is now moot. I think we see the most selfless Kobe this year because he will badly want to beat that crew at all costs.

Actually, I prefer the angry scowling mostly silent sociopath over the clown shoe wearing and endlessly yapping diva.

Ah, but the media does not, and there's the rub. The clown-shoe wearer gives better quotes and thus earns the hearts of reporters. And that's something you can draw on later, as Shaq and Fav-ray have proven. And Chad too. TO's quotes interestingly lumps Chad in with himself, but he's wrong. Chad would get away with a lot of things (some might say HAS gotten away with a lot of things) that TO can't. It's not racism, it's being media savvy.

If there's a case for racism getting a guy on the 'hated' list, how about Iverson? I believe he's still on the Forbes list. White America never took to him so much.

[wpeldios]

Race definitely has a factor. It's just a subject that people usually aren't willing to talk about. When a poll is released of the most disliked guys in Sports and at least the Top 6 guys are black that definitely shows that there is an issue with race IMO.

I suppose it has nothing to do with Vick killing dogs.

As for the others, it pretty much comes down to who gets the most media coverage. Once being force fed enough of Tiger Woods, you will start to hate him. I was watching espn news the other day, they showed a combined 6 shots in a golf tournament. 5 of them were Tiger, who finished 43rd if i remember correctly.

Chad and TO are guilty of putting themselves in the spotlight. They each have had their own reality show. I will flat say TO would make my list. Kobe and Lebron get more coverage than any other players in the nba.

This is not an issue of race, this is an issue of media coverage. And on that note, if I made my own, Favre and Tebow would both crack the top 10 easy, probably top 6 or 7. Its not because I hate white quarterbacks, its because I am so sick of seeing them and hearing about them.

[BengalPimp]

How did Rapistberger not make the list?

[HairOnFire]

Think how sad this is though - *Six years later* Kobe's relationship with Shaq still defines his own career.

Hardly. Kobe has won two championships without Shaq and his Lakers are the current champions with an excellent chance to win more titles. So not only is Kobe still at the top of the NBA mountain...his story is still being written and his image is still being defined. As for Shaq, since winning a title with Miami he has bounced from team to team playing the sidekick to bigger stars, and his contracts have shrunk accordingly. I'm guessing he's got one more year left, as the 3rd or 4th option for the Celtics, before he's done. Thus, his story is nearly complete and his self-imposed divorce from the Lakers, motivated by jealousy and greed, now defines HIS career. But Shaq will never find himself on a current list of the most hated precisely because he's currently irrelevant. He's not hated precisely because he doesn't matter. But Kobe is the reigning champ, ready and willing to take on all comers...including Michael Jordan's legacy.

The clown-shoe wearer gives better quotes and thus earns the hearts of reporters. And that's something you can draw on later, as Shaq and Fav-ray have proven. And Chad too.

But media spin only gets you so far....especially when it's so often proven to be false later on, as was the case with Kobe and Shaq. And as the Chad example proves, reporters may love the quips and quotes, but the general public forms it's own opinions based upon it's own agenda. To that end the general public has overwhelmingly determined that Chad is a raging douchnozzle who deserves to be on the list of the hated. And while you can argue endlessly if he truly deserves to be on such a list I'm going to argue that he made the list because he's overexposed due to his own actions. Simply put, he's not nearly as funny as he thinks he is, and his brand of "entertainment" is mediocre at best. Combined, those two things result in the public being confronted with an irritating hyperactive sweat act that seems to be everywhere, very much like that gal Flo from the Progressive Insurance ads. And who doesn't hate her? Who doesn't want to stab her in the heart everytime she shouts the word discount? And there's the real rub because her actions aren't worthy of hatred, but her level of overexposure most certainly is.

[redsbengalsbucks]

Your being to in depth, while looking at this.

Kobe has a personality that at best can be described as off-putting and at worst he is a dick. While Shaq comes off as friendly and even though he is huge, kinda teddy-bearish. Shaq will always be more liked than Kobe, no matter how many rings he collects.

[HairOnFire]

Your being to in depth, while looking at this.

Perhaps. There's no doubt about Shaq winning the media war the two fought, but as DC points out....Shaq won because the media told a false story based upon Kobe forcing the Lakers to choose between the two players. In reality Shaq made demands upon the Lakers that they were never going to meet and as a result wrote his own ticket out of town without any help from Kobe. And while the truth matters to me and other Laker fans it probably doesn't count for much in a nationwide poll. But doesn't all of that support my belief that players end up on lists like this for emotional reasons rather than a hard fact based ranking of their negative actions?

Kobe has a personality that at best can be described as off-putting and at worst he is a dick. While Shaq comes off as friendly and even though he is huge, kinda teddy-bearish.

But that's not the perception in Los Angeles, where fans and observers are more versed in what actually happened. In Lakerland Shaq is viewed as a lazy jealous player who needlesly scuttled the Lakers chances of winning more titles due to his ego and lack of maturity....the very things Kobe is most often criticized for.

And again, because Kobe is the reigning king of the NBA he can't be ignored or forgotten as easily as Shaq. Fans from Oklahoma City to Boston are all feeling fresh hatred for Kobe precisely because he ended their dreams of glory. Meanwhile, Shaq ain't done nothing to nobody for quite some time now. You might even say he's become the Big Irrelevant.