Mike Brown Seeks Option to leave in 2017.

[gregstephens]

As far as I'm concerned, as long as we got the Cleveland deal where we kept the colors, history and were guaranteed a team, I couldn't care less if SoP took his ball and left town. Give us new owners with a new philosophy and I don't think we could do much worse over a long term stretch, as long as the Lerners aren't involved.

As far as Hamilton County's problems are concerned. That county and the city of Cincinnati are two of the most messed up political communities I've ever seen. I don't live there, I don't shop there unless I absolutely have to and I can honestly see Cincinnati becoming the next Detroit in the next 5-10 years.

[Sea Ray]

There have been about 500 bankruptcy filings by municipalities and other governmental entities.

A pretty high wall exists to such filings. For instance, a municipality is required to engage in negotiations with its creditors to try to reach a comprimise to avoid bankruptcy. The Bengals seem to be trying to amend their agreement to help the county, though it appears the county is too stupid to understand that.

In regards to just taxing your way out of dire financial straits, the following excerpt from "Municipal Bankruptcy In Perspective", a paper by the Bureau of Governmental Research in Louisiana, addresses such a strategy,

"Other remedies, such as raising taxes or cutting services, may actually hinder the municipality’s

ability to stabilize itself. This would occur where taxes rise, or services fall, to a level that

discourages investment or results in disinvestment. Under those circumstances... bankruptcy becomes an option to consider."

Your skepticism of bankruptcy filings by governmental entities is shared by many. For instance, the paper cited above details the incredible problems facing post-Katrina parishes in Louisiana. These places had their tax bases washed out to sea, but the State of Louisiana has so far refused to allow them to file bankruptcy, feeling the negative impact of such filings is too overwhelming.

On the other end of the spectrum, Orange County, California, filed for municipal bankruptcy in 1994, probably because they had a really cloudy day or something.

Completely off-topic, but please indulge me for a moment regarding a strategy sometimese implemented by bankruptcy courts to implement municipal bankrupties. From the above-cited paper:

“Cramdown” – binding a dissenting class

Alternatively, the court may confirm a plan notwithstanding the plan’s rejection by a class if at

least one impaired class of creditors has accepted it. This process is sometimes referred to as

“cramdown.” Cramdown, in essence, forces creditors to go along with a plan that they have not

approved.

So if Hamilton County did file bankruptcy, the bankruptcy judge could implement a Cramdown on the Brown family.

/>http://www.la-par.org/Publications/PDF/Municipal%20Bankruptcy.pdf

Thanks for the info. Very interesting read. I still don't think bankruptcy is in the cards for this county. I don't think a quarter cent sales tax increase would be more painful than a bankruptcy.

A quarter-cent sales tax hike would generate about $28 million annually, enough to provide a long-term fix for the stadium fund.

/>http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100105/NEWS0108/1060311/Legislators-won%5C-t-support--cigarette-tax

I think the idea of bankruptcy is extreme in this case

[Sea Ray]

As far as I'm concerned, as long as we got the Cleveland deal where we kept the colors, history and were guaranteed a team, I couldn't care less if SoP took his ball and left town. Give us new owners with a new philosophy and I don't think we could do much worse over a long term stretch, as long as the Lerners aren't involved.

As far as Hamilton County's problems are concerned. That county and the city of Cincinnati are two of the most messed up political communities I've ever seen. I don't live there, I don't shop there unless I absolutely have to and I can honestly see Cincinnati becoming the next Detroit in the next 5-10 years.

Cincinnati becoming the next Detroit is about as likely as the city getting a Cleveland Browns deal from the NFL...

[gregstephens]

As far as I'm concerned, as long as we got the Cleveland deal where we kept the colors, history and were guaranteed a team, I couldn't care less if SoP took his ball and left town. Give us new owners with a new philosophy and I don't think we could do much worse over a long term stretch, as long as the Lerners aren't involved.

As far as Hamilton County's problems are concerned. That county and the city of Cincinnati are two of the most messed up political communities I've ever seen. I don't live there, I don't shop there unless I absolutely have to and I can honestly see Cincinnati becoming the next Detroit in the next 5-10 years.

Cincinnati becoming the next Detroit is about as likely as the city getting a Cleveland Browns deal from the NFL...

Think so? Needing 30 million additional to operate as a county is a pretty good start. The Banks project has been a bust. There is no sustainable entertainment or night life in the city boundaries itself. It has a recent history of longtime retail tenents leaving in droves. It has a recent history of residents leaving in droves. It has a crime problem with which the local system and jail cannot keep up.

The only thing that can possibly throw it a life boat a this point is the casino but, frankly, I think the turnouts and revenues will be disappointing because, let's face it, Lawrenceburg isn't that far away and it's alot safer to go to at night.

[HairOnFire]

A pretty high wall exists to such filings. For instance, a municipality is required to engage in negotiations with its creditors to try to reach a comprimise to avoid bankruptcy. The Bengals seem to be trying to amend their agreement to help the county, though it appears the county is too stupid to understand that.

As of this frozen moment in time the Bengals can easily prove they've attempted to negotiate in good faith. Can the county prove as much? Have they responded with an offer of their own? Have they done anything at all besides complain about the comparably minor things they're expected to give up in exchange for major financial help?

So if Hamilton County did file bankruptcy, the bankruptcy judge could implement a Cramdown on the Brown family.

A comparable situation once existed in San Diego, and long story short that city was advised that any attempt to force this type of bankruptcy related settlement on a non-essential privately owned business entity brings with it the risk of an existing lease being ruled invalid, thereby allowing the team to move immediately and without any penalties imposed. As a result San Diego not only didn't follow through on it's threat, but softened it's hardline stance and eventually agreed to accept the concessions then being offered by the Chargers in exchange for...(wait for it)...an option to leave.

[Ickey44]

As far as I'm concerned, as long as we got the Cleveland deal where we kept the colors, history and were guaranteed a team, I couldn't care less if SoP took his ball and left town. Give us new owners with a new philosophy and I don't think we could do much worse over a long term stretch, as long as the Lerners aren't involved.

As far as Hamilton County's problems are concerned. That county and the city of Cincinnati are two of the most messed up political communities I've ever seen. I don't live there, I don't shop there unless I absolutely have to and I can honestly see Cincinnati becoming the next Detroit in the next 5-10 years.

Cincinnati becoming the next Detroit is about as likely as the city getting a Cleveland Browns deal from the NFL...

Think so? Needing 30 million additional to operate as a county is a pretty good start. The Banks project has been a bust. There is no sustainable entertainment or night life in the city boundaries itself. It has a recent history of longtime retail tenents leaving in droves. It has a recent history of residents leaving in droves. It has a crime problem with which the local system and jail cannot keep up.

The only thing that can possibly throw it a life boat a this point is the casino but, frankly, I think the turnouts and revenues will be disappointing because, let's face it, Lawrenceburg isn't that far away and it's alot safer to go to at night.

Also, people who smoke are going to go to Indiana. The smoking ban has been horrible for bars up in Cincy but it's been great for the night clubs in Newport and Covington. My friends who live in Cincy always want to come down here when we hang out just so they can smoke.

[cincyhokie]

As far as I'm concerned, as long as we got the Cleveland deal where we kept the colors, history and were guaranteed a team, I couldn't care less if SoP took his ball and left town. Give us new owners with a new philosophy and I don't think we could do much worse over a long term stretch, as long as the Lerners aren't involved.

As far as Hamilton County's problems are concerned. That county and the city of Cincinnati are two of the most messed up political communities I've ever seen. I don't live there, I don't shop there unless I absolutely have to and I can honestly see Cincinnati becoming the next Detroit in the next 5-10 years.

Cincinnati becoming the next Detroit is about as likely as the city getting a Cleveland Browns deal from the NFL...

Think so? Needing 30 million additional to operate as a county is a pretty good start. The Banks project has been a bust. There is no sustainable entertainment or night life in the city boundaries itself. It has a recent history of longtime retail tenents leaving in droves. It has a recent history of residents leaving in droves. It has a crime problem with which the local system and jail cannot keep up.

The only thing that can possibly throw it a life boat a this point is the casino but, frankly, I think the turnouts and revenues will be disappointing because, let's face it, Lawrenceburg isn't that far away and it's alot safer to go to at night.

1. How can the Banks be a bust? It hasn't been finished yet.

2. People will stay and gamble downtown because Lawrenceburg sucks. Being downtown isn't dangerous. People just think it is because they never go downtown.

[Jet23]

Is there any truth to the rumor that the entire 40 Mil is to come directly from the My Bestest Employee's Thanks for Screwing the Hamilton County Sheep Bonus Fund?

It's amazing that the words 'collusion' and 'fraud' are not thrown around more in this city...

[gregstephens]

As far as I'm concerned, as long as we got the Cleveland deal where we kept the colors, history and were guaranteed a team, I couldn't care less if SoP took his ball and left town. Give us new owners with a new philosophy and I don't think we could do much worse over a long term stretch, as long as the Lerners aren't involved.

As far as Hamilton County's problems are concerned. That county and the city of Cincinnati are two of the most messed up political communities I've ever seen. I don't live there, I don't shop there unless I absolutely have to and I can honestly see Cincinnati becoming the next Detroit in the next 5-10 years.

Cincinnati becoming the next Detroit is about as likely as the city getting a Cleveland Browns deal from the NFL...

Think so? Needing 30 million additional to operate as a county is a pretty good start. The Banks project has been a bust. There is no sustainable entertainment or night life in the city boundaries itself. It has a recent history of longtime retail tenents leaving in droves. It has a recent history of residents leaving in droves. It has a crime problem with which the local system and jail cannot keep up.

The only thing that can possibly throw it a life boat a this point is the casino but, frankly, I think the turnouts and revenues will be disappointing because, let's face it, Lawrenceburg isn't that far away and it's alot safer to go to at night.

1. How can the Banks be a bust? It hasn't been finished yet.

2. People will stay and gamble downtown because Lawrenceburg sucks. Being downtown isn't dangerous. People just think it is because they never go downtown.

1. Hasn't been finished yet? How about hasn't been started yet? How about, would never be started but for the casino? The Banks are a bust because they could have had what Newport has and didn't take advantage. Were it not for a vote on a casino gambling referendum statewide, nothing would EVER be done with the Banks. Newport was a dump that used their side of the water to revitalize the city. Cincy...not so much.

2. Lawrenceburg doesn't suck. It's easy to get to right off I-275. It's easy to negotiate because you don't have a bunch of contradictory one-way streets and confusing exit exchanges. Traffic is never a problem. And, Lawrenceburg wasn't named the most dangerous city in the US based on crime per capita (see Over the Rhine). Plus, as my colleague has correctly pointed out, the smokers will drive a little extra way to gamble.

Oh, but you're right. I did forget that very nice and expensive Underground Railroad Museum that draws an average of, what about a hundred visitors a month and only exists because of the bogus civil rights settlement from 2001? Not sure how the city is in so much debt now that I think about it.

[Sea Ray]

As much as they say downtown is dead, everytime I try to park down there I have a hard time because something's always going on.

They are completing work on downtown's tallest tower as I write this. Companies such as P & G, Western-Southern, Great American Financial and Macy's are all doing fine.

Cincinnati has room for improvement but it isn't Detroit, nor is the county going bankrupt. The hyperbole found on the internet is pretty incredible sometimes.

[cincyhokie]

As far as I'm concerned, as long as we got the Cleveland deal where we kept the colors, history and were guaranteed a team, I couldn't care less if SoP took his ball and left town. Give us new owners with a new philosophy and I don't think we could do much worse over a long term stretch, as long as the Lerners aren't involved.

As far as Hamilton County's problems are concerned. That county and the city of Cincinnati are two of the most messed up political communities I've ever seen. I don't live there, I don't shop there unless I absolutely have to and I can honestly see Cincinnati becoming the next Detroit in the next 5-10 years.

Cincinnati becoming the next Detroit is about as likely as the city getting a Cleveland Browns deal from the NFL...

Think so? Needing 30 million additional to operate as a county is a pretty good start. The Banks project has been a bust. There is no sustainable entertainment or night life in the city boundaries itself. It has a recent history of longtime retail tenents leaving in droves. It has a recent history of residents leaving in droves. It has a crime problem with which the local system and jail cannot keep up.

The only thing that can possibly throw it a life boat a this point is the casino but, frankly, I think the turnouts and revenues will be disappointing because, let's face it, Lawrenceburg isn't that far away and it's alot safer to go to at night.

1. How can the Banks be a bust? It hasn't been finished yet.

2. People will stay and gamble downtown because Lawrenceburg sucks. Being downtown isn't dangerous. People just think it is because they never go downtown.

1. Hasn't been finished yet? How about hasn't been started yet? How about, would never be started but for the casino? The Banks are a bust because they could have had what Newport has and didn't take advantage. Were it not for a vote on a casino gambling referendum statewide, nothing would EVER be done with the Banks. Newport was a dump that used their side of the water to revitalize the city. Cincy...not so much.

2. Lawrenceburg doesn't suck. It's easy to get to right off I-275. It's easy to negotiate because you don't have a bunch of contradictory one-way streets and confusing exit exchanges. Traffic is never a problem. And, Lawrenceburg wasn't named the most dangerous city in the US based on crime per capita (see Over the Rhine). Plus, as my colleague has correctly pointed out, the smokers will drive a little extra way to gamble.

Oh, but you're right. I did forget that very nice and expensive Underground Railroad Museum that draws an average of, what about a hundred visitors a month and only exists because of the bogus civil rights settlement from 2001? Not sure how the city is in so much debt now that I think about it.

The Banks have started construction. I went past it last weekend as I went across the Roebling Bridge. Why can't it be successful? Because Newport is there? So what? So we should give up and quit because they were first?

I didn't know that the casino was going to be built in OTR. Maybe if more people would go downtown and brave big bad Cincinnati they might find out it has more to offer than they think. It's also safer than people think too.

But hey, don't find out for yourselves. Just stick to reading the paper and listening to what the news tells you.

By the way, I used to work in Lawrenceburg. It sucks. Now I work near OTR and walk thru and around there everyday.

[cincyhokie]

As far as I'm concerned, as long as we got the Cleveland deal where we kept the colors, history and were guaranteed a team, I couldn't care less if SoP took his ball and left town. Give us new owners with a new philosophy and I don't think we could do much worse over a long term stretch, as long as the Lerners aren't involved.

As far as Hamilton County's problems are concerned. That county and the city of Cincinnati are two of the most messed up political communities I've ever seen. I don't live there, I don't shop there unless I absolutely have to and I can honestly see Cincinnati becoming the next Detroit in the next 5-10 years.

Cincinnati becoming the next Detroit is about as likely as the city getting a Cleveland Browns deal from the NFL...

Think so? Needing 30 million additional to operate as a county is a pretty good start. The Banks project has been a bust. There is no sustainable entertainment or night life in the city boundaries itself. It has a recent history of longtime retail tenents leaving in droves. It has a recent history of residents leaving in droves. It has a crime problem with which the local system and jail cannot keep up.

The only thing that can possibly throw it a life boat a this point is the casino but, frankly, I think the turnouts and revenues will be disappointing because, let's face it, Lawrenceburg isn't that far away and it's alot safer to go to at night.

Also, people who smoke are going to go to Indiana. The smoking ban has been horrible for bars up in Cincy but it's been great for the night clubs in Newport and Covington. My friends who live in Cincy always want to come down here when we hang out just so they can smoke.

That's funny because the people that I hang with don't smoke and they love the ban. Some of them hate going to Kentucky because of the smoking.

[gregstephens]

As much as they say downtown is dead, everytime I try to park down there I have a hard time because something's always going on.

They are completing work on downtown's tallest tower as I write this. Companies such as P & G, Western-Southern, Great American Financial and Macy's are all doing fine.

Cincinnati has room for improvement but it isn't Detroit, nor is the county going bankrupt. The hyperbole found on the internet is pretty incredible sometimes.

You have a hard time parking in Cincinnati because the parking situation down there sucks. It has always been vastly underdedicated to parking lots and cost-efficient garages. I have friends that work down there that pay 100-200 per month for garage space.

The tallest tower project is the first major commercial related project since probably the P&G Towers were built in 1985. Everything else has been government, theatres and stadiums, all built in large part or entirely with government money, not the private infuse of corporate money.

While you cite the local companies that are doing fine, you fail to mention the ones that didn't. The Maisonette closed after many years, as did La Normande's, because people don't want to eat downtown anymore. McAlpin's/Dillards left. Drive down on a Saturday afternoon when the Reds aren't playing and walk around the city. It's a ghost town. Drive down on a Saturday night when nothing's at the Aronoff and it's a scary ghost town. Go into the outer skirts of 'Greater Cincinnati' and look at the businesses that left West Side and Norwood, most notably the GM plant. Look at the fine, old, dilapidating mansions in Clifton as a testament as to how far Cincy has fallen in 50-80 years. Look at the disappearance of the breweries like Schoendling and Hudepohl, Hair's pork plants, Swallens'. Count how many auto dealers are actually in downtown Cincy.

With the county continuing to bleed money, I'm glad some can still be optimistic about Cincy's future.

[gregstephens]

As far as I'm concerned, as long as we got the Cleveland deal where we kept the colors, history and were guaranteed a team, I couldn't care less if SoP took his ball and left town. Give us new owners with a new philosophy and I don't think we could do much worse over a long term stretch, as long as the Lerners aren't involved.

As far as Hamilton County's problems are concerned. That county and the city of Cincinnati are two of the most messed up political communities I've ever seen. I don't live there, I don't shop there unless I absolutely have to and I can honestly see Cincinnati becoming the next Detroit in the next 5-10 years.

Cincinnati becoming the next Detroit is about as likely as the city getting a Cleveland Browns deal from the NFL...

Think so? Needing 30 million additional to operate as a county is a pretty good start. The Banks project has been a bust. There is no sustainable entertainment or night life in the city boundaries itself. It has a recent history of longtime retail tenents leaving in droves. It has a recent history of residents leaving in droves. It has a crime problem with which the local system and jail cannot keep up.

The only thing that can possibly throw it a life boat a this point is the casino but, frankly, I think the turnouts and revenues will be disappointing because, let's face it, Lawrenceburg isn't that far away and it's alot safer to go to at night.

1. How can the Banks be a bust? It hasn't been finished yet.

2. People will stay and gamble downtown because Lawrenceburg sucks. Being downtown isn't dangerous. People just think it is because they never go downtown.

1. Hasn't been finished yet? How about hasn't been started yet? How about, would never be started but for the casino? The Banks are a bust because they could have had what Newport has and didn't take advantage. Were it not for a vote on a casino gambling referendum statewide, nothing would EVER be done with the Banks. Newport was a dump that used their side of the water to revitalize the city. Cincy...not so much.

2. Lawrenceburg doesn't suck. It's easy to get to right off I-275. It's easy to negotiate because you don't have a bunch of contradictory one-way streets and confusing exit exchanges. Traffic is never a problem. And, Lawrenceburg wasn't named the most dangerous city in the US based on crime per capita (see Over the Rhine). Plus, as my colleague has correctly pointed out, the smokers will drive a little extra way to gamble.

Oh, but you're right. I did forget that very nice and expensive Underground Railroad Museum that draws an average of, what about a hundred visitors a month and only exists because of the bogus civil rights settlement from 2001? Not sure how the city is in so much debt now that I think about it.

The Banks have started construction. I went past it last weekend as I went across the Roebling Bridge. Why can't it be successful? Because Newport is there? So what? So we should give up and quit because they were first?

I didn't know that the casino was going to be built in OTR. Maybe if more people would go downtown and brave big bad Cincinnati they might find out it has more to offer than they think. It's also safer than people think too.

But hey, don't find out for yourselves. Just stick to reading the paper and listening to what the news tells you.

By the way, I used to work in Lawrenceburg. It sucks. Now I work near OTR and walk thru and around there everyday.

You shouldn't give up and quit on the Banks. The city should kick itself for missing out on at least a decade of prosperity the Banks could have brought that may have been able to stave off this economic crisis. Never was a proactive government, never will be.

OTR is what, within one to two miles of the casino spots? At most? Until that area is cleaned up, people will not want to drive through there or park near there or do anything near there, especially go into or come out of a casino with large amounts of cash on them late at night. You WALK through the middle of OTR everyday? Ok, congrats. Obviously you don't work a night shift because I doubt you'd be so bold, or perhaps foolish. The police have all but given up on that section and you even try to defend it?

And you assume I've never been to Cincinnati? I used to work there. I used to practice law there. I used to work off Linn Street behind Cincinnati Chili. You say Lawrenceburg sucks? Why? I've given you my reasons in re Cincy.

[cincyhokie]

As much as they say downtown is dead, everytime I try to park down there I have a hard time because something's always going on.

They are completing work on downtown's tallest tower as I write this. Companies such as P & G, Western-Southern, Great American Financial and Macy's are all doing fine.

Cincinnati has room for improvement but it isn't Detroit, nor is the county going bankrupt. The hyperbole found on the internet is pretty incredible sometimes.

You have a hard time parking in Cincinnati because the parking situation down there sucks. It has always been vastly underdedicated to parking lots and cost-efficient garages. I have friends that work down there that pay 100-200 per month for garage space.

The tallest tower project is the first major commercial related project since probably the P&G Towers were built in 1985. Everything else has been government, theatres and stadiums, all built in large part or entirely with government money, not the private infuse of corporate money.

While you cite the local companies that are doing fine, you fail to mention the ones that didn't. The Maisonette closed after many years, as did La Normande's, because people don't want to eat downtown anymore. McAlpin's/Dillards left. Drive down on a Saturday afternoon when the Reds aren't playing and walk around the city. It's a ghost town. Drive down on a Saturday night when nothing's at the Aronoff and it's a scary ghost town. Go into the outer skirts of 'Greater Cincinnati' and look at the businesses that left West Side and Norwood, most notably the GM plant. Look at the fine, old, dilapidating mansions in Clifton as a testament as to how far Cincy has fallen in 50-80 years. Look at the disappearance of the breweries like Schoendling and Hudepohl, Hair's pork plants, Swallens'. Count how many auto dealers are actually in downtown Cincy.

With the county continuing to bleed money, I'm glad some can still be optimistic about Cincy's future.

Cincinnati has always been a ghost town at night except for the games. Yet building the Banks is a bad idea....because???? So the construction I see downtown is a symbol of it's deterioration?

The brand new upscale condo's and numbers of one's being built on Vine and Main St. around the 12th-14th Street blocks are a bad sign?????

What if what you are referring to is the city's sliding to it's "rock bottom" and that it took a decade plus to get there????

How far the city is fallen the last 80 years???? No crap. So I guess we should pack it in and wait for the Detroit-ness to settle in. F it.

By the way, I live in Clifton and it's one of the more thriving parts of the city.

[Ickey44]

As far as I'm concerned, as long as we got the Cleveland deal where we kept the colors, history and were guaranteed a team, I couldn't care less if SoP took his ball and left town. Give us new owners with a new philosophy and I don't think we could do much worse over a long term stretch, as long as the Lerners aren't involved.

As far as Hamilton County's problems are concerned. That county and the city of Cincinnati are two of the most messed up political communities I've ever seen. I don't live there, I don't shop there unless I absolutely have to and I can honestly see Cincinnati becoming the next Detroit in the next 5-10 years.

Cincinnati becoming the next Detroit is about as likely as the city getting a Cleveland Browns deal from the NFL...

Think so? Needing 30 million additional to operate as a county is a pretty good start. The Banks project has been a bust. There is no sustainable entertainment or night life in the city boundaries itself. It has a recent history of longtime retail tenents leaving in droves. It has a recent history of residents leaving in droves. It has a crime problem with which the local system and jail cannot keep up.

The only thing that can possibly throw it a life boat a this point is the casino but, frankly, I think the turnouts and revenues will be disappointing because, let's face it, Lawrenceburg isn't that far away and it's alot safer to go to at night.

Also, people who smoke are going to go to Indiana. The smoking ban has been horrible for bars up in Cincy but it's been great for the night clubs in Newport and Covington. My friends who live in Cincy always want to come down here when we hang out just so they can smoke.

That's funny because the people that I hang with don't smoke and they love the ban. Some of them hate going to Kentucky because of the smoking.

That's really, really great but it still doesn't change the fact that bars in the Cincy area have lost a of business because of the ban.

[cincyhokie]

As far as I'm concerned, as long as we got the Cleveland deal where we kept the colors, history and were guaranteed a team, I couldn't care less if SoP took his ball and left town. Give us new owners with a new philosophy and I don't think we could do much worse over a long term stretch, as long as the Lerners aren't involved.

As far as Hamilton County's problems are concerned. That county and the city of Cincinnati are two of the most messed up political communities I've ever seen. I don't live there, I don't shop there unless I absolutely have to and I can honestly see Cincinnati becoming the next Detroit in the next 5-10 years.

Cincinnati becoming the next Detroit is about as likely as the city getting a Cleveland Browns deal from the NFL...

Think so? Needing 30 million additional to operate as a county is a pretty good start. The Banks project has been a bust. There is no sustainable entertainment or night life in the city boundaries itself. It has a recent history of longtime retail tenents leaving in droves. It has a recent history of residents leaving in droves. It has a crime problem with which the local system and jail cannot keep up.

The only thing that can possibly throw it a life boat a this point is the casino but, frankly, I think the turnouts and revenues will be disappointing because, let's face it, Lawrenceburg isn't that far away and it's alot safer to go to at night.

1. How can the Banks be a bust? It hasn't been finished yet.

2. People will stay and gamble downtown because Lawrenceburg sucks. Being downtown isn't dangerous. People just think it is because they never go downtown.

1. Hasn't been finished yet? How about hasn't been started yet? How about, would never be started but for the casino? The Banks are a bust because they could have had what Newport has and didn't take advantage. Were it not for a vote on a casino gambling referendum statewide, nothing would EVER be done with the Banks. Newport was a dump that used their side of the water to revitalize the city. Cincy...not so much.

2. Lawrenceburg doesn't suck. It's easy to get to right off I-275. It's easy to negotiate because you don't have a bunch of contradictory one-way streets and confusing exit exchanges. Traffic is never a problem. And, Lawrenceburg wasn't named the most dangerous city in the US based on crime per capita (see Over the Rhine). Plus, as my colleague has correctly pointed out, the smokers will drive a little extra way to gamble.

Oh, but you're right. I did forget that very nice and expensive Underground Railroad Museum that draws an average of, what about a hundred visitors a month and only exists because of the bogus civil rights settlement from 2001? Not sure how the city is in so much debt now that I think about it.

The Banks have started construction. I went past it last weekend as I went across the Roebling Bridge. Why can't it be successful? Because Newport is there? So what? So we should give up and quit because they were first?

I didn't know that the casino was going to be built in OTR. Maybe if more people would go downtown and brave big bad Cincinnati they might find out it has more to offer than they think. It's also safer than people think too.

But hey, don't find out for yourselves. Just stick to reading the paper and listening to what the news tells you.

By the way, I used to work in Lawrenceburg. It sucks. Now I work near OTR and walk thru and around there everyday.

You shouldn't give up and quit on the Banks. The city should kick itself for missing out on at least a decade of prosperity the Banks could have brought that may have been able to stave off this economic crisis. Never was a proactive government, never will be.

OTR is what, within one to two miles of the casino spots? At most? Until that area is cleaned up, people will not want to drive through there or park near there or do anything near there, especially go into or come out of a casino with large amounts of cash on them late at night. You WALK through the middle of OTR everyday? Ok, congrats. Obviously you don't work a night shift because I doubt you'd be so bold, or perhaps foolish. The police have all but given up on that section and you even try to defend it?

And you assume I've never been to Cincinnati? I used to work there. I used to practice law there. I used to work off Linn Street behind Cincinnati Chili. You say Lawrenceburg sucks? Why? I've given you my reasons in re Cincy.

The "power" of the casinos will be enough to get people downtown. What if the developers have considered the "safety" issue? What does it hurt to try with the casino? How do we ever improve if we don't do things differently? That's been the downfall of this city the last 20, 80, 200 years. It's been it's fear driven conservativism. What if, what if, what if???? Hell, we won't know until we try.

Lawrenceburg is out of the way, it's in Indiana, and my old job is there. Therefore, it sucks!

[cincyhokie]

As far as I'm concerned, as long as we got the Cleveland deal where we kept the colors, history and were guaranteed a team, I couldn't care less if SoP took his ball and left town. Give us new owners with a new philosophy and I don't think we could do much worse over a long term stretch, as long as the Lerners aren't involved.

As far as Hamilton County's problems are concerned. That county and the city of Cincinnati are two of the most messed up political communities I've ever seen. I don't live there, I don't shop there unless I absolutely have to and I can honestly see Cincinnati becoming the next Detroit in the next 5-10 years.

Cincinnati becoming the next Detroit is about as likely as the city getting a Cleveland Browns deal from the NFL...

Think so? Needing 30 million additional to operate as a county is a pretty good start. The Banks project has been a bust. There is no sustainable entertainment or night life in the city boundaries itself. It has a recent history of longtime retail tenents leaving in droves. It has a recent history of residents leaving in droves. It has a crime problem with which the local system and jail cannot keep up.

The only thing that can possibly throw it a life boat a this point is the casino but, frankly, I think the turnouts and revenues will be disappointing because, let's face it, Lawrenceburg isn't that far away and it's alot safer to go to at night.

Also, people who smoke are going to go to Indiana. The smoking ban has been horrible for bars up in Cincy but it's been great for the night clubs in Newport and Covington. My friends who live in Cincy always want to come down here when we hang out just so they can smoke.

That's funny because the people that I hang with don't smoke and they love the ban. Some of them hate going to Kentucky because of the smoking.

That's really, really great but it still doesn't change the fact that bars in the Cincy area have lost a of business because of the ban.

I guess that depends on the bar. Because the one's I go to are still as busy as ever.

[gregstephens]

As much as they say downtown is dead, everytime I try to park down there I have a hard time because something's always going on.

They are completing work on downtown's tallest tower as I write this. Companies such as P & G, Western-Southern, Great American Financial and Macy's are all doing fine.

Cincinnati has room for improvement but it isn't Detroit, nor is the county going bankrupt. The hyperbole found on the internet is pretty incredible sometimes.

You have a hard time parking in Cincinnati because the parking situation down there sucks. It has always been vastly underdedicated to parking lots and cost-efficient garages. I have friends that work down there that pay 100-200 per month for garage space.

The tallest tower project is the first major commercial related project since probably the P&G Towers were built in 1985. Everything else has been government, theatres and stadiums, all built in large part or entirely with government money, not the private infuse of corporate money.

While you cite the local companies that are doing fine, you fail to mention the ones that didn't. The Maisonette closed after many years, as did La Normande's, because people don't want to eat downtown anymore. McAlpin's/Dillards left. Drive down on a Saturday afternoon when the Reds aren't playing and walk around the city. It's a ghost town. Drive down on a Saturday night when nothing's at the Aronoff and it's a scary ghost town. Go into the outer skirts of 'Greater Cincinnati' and look at the businesses that left West Side and Norwood, most notably the GM plant. Look at the fine, old, dilapidating mansions in Clifton as a testament as to how far Cincy has fallen in 50-80 years. Look at the disappearance of the breweries like Schoendling and Hudepohl, Hair's pork plants, Swallens'. Count how many auto dealers are actually in downtown Cincy.

With the county continuing to bleed money, I'm glad some can still be optimistic about Cincy's future.

Cincinnati has always been a ghost town at night except for the games. Yet building the Banks is a bad idea....because???? So the construction I see downtown is a symbol of it's deterioration?

The brand new upscale condo's and numbers of one's being built on Vine and Main St. around the 12th-14th Street blocks are a bad sign?????

What if what you are referring to is the city's sliding to it's "rock bottom" and that it took a decade plus to get there????

How far the city is fallen the last 80 years???? No crap. So I guess we should pack it in and wait for the Detroit-ness to settle in. F it.

By the way, I live in Clifton and it's one of the more thriving parts of the city.

Cincy hasn't always been a ghost town at night. That's my point. Used to have restaurants and decent bars, more shopping, more big time events come to the city.

How's the condos selling right now? I hear there are still a lot of units not moved for 500,000-plus. This isn't 'Build it and they will come'. You gotta sell those puppies before you can brag.

No, I think if the city/county keeps bleeding 30-plus million a year, having to continually cut police, fire, public and social services and freeing prisoners due to space, then you can count on packing it in sooner than later.

Clifton is one of the more thriving parts of the city? Based on what definition of thriving? It's not an OTR by any means, but it's not growing, expanding and really changing. It's a college/hospital/zoo area. Ok, pretty secure future there. Can't say it's really changed a whole lot in decades to call it 'thriving'. It's not a bad part of town, but it pretty much just exists.

[gregstephens]

As far as I'm concerned, as long as we got the Cleveland deal where we kept the colors, history and were guaranteed a team, I couldn't care less if SoP took his ball and left town. Give us new owners with a new philosophy and I don't think we could do much worse over a long term stretch, as long as the Lerners aren't involved.

As far as Hamilton County's problems are concerned. That county and the city of Cincinnati are two of the most messed up political communities I've ever seen. I don't live there, I don't shop there unless I absolutely have to and I can honestly see Cincinnati becoming the next Detroit in the next 5-10 years.

Cincinnati becoming the next Detroit is about as likely as the city getting a Cleveland Browns deal from the NFL...

Think so? Needing 30 million additional to operate as a county is a pretty good start. The Banks project has been a bust. There is no sustainable entertainment or night life in the city boundaries itself. It has a recent history of longtime retail tenents leaving in droves. It has a recent history of residents leaving in droves. It has a crime problem with which the local system and jail cannot keep up.

The only thing that can possibly throw it a life boat a this point is the casino but, frankly, I think the turnouts and revenues will be disappointing because, let's face it, Lawrenceburg isn't that far away and it's alot safer to go to at night.

1. How can the Banks be a bust? It hasn't been finished yet.

2. People will stay and gamble downtown because Lawrenceburg sucks. Being downtown isn't dangerous. People just think it is because they never go downtown.

1. Hasn't been finished yet? How about hasn't been started yet? How about, would never be started but for the casino? The Banks are a bust because they could have had what Newport has and didn't take advantage. Were it not for a vote on a casino gambling referendum statewide, nothing would EVER be done with the Banks. Newport was a dump that used their side of the water to revitalize the city. Cincy...not so much.

2. Lawrenceburg doesn't suck. It's easy to get to right off I-275. It's easy to negotiate because you don't have a bunch of contradictory one-way streets and confusing exit exchanges. Traffic is never a problem. And, Lawrenceburg wasn't named the most dangerous city in the US based on crime per capita (see Over the Rhine). Plus, as my colleague has correctly pointed out, the smokers will drive a little extra way to gamble.

Oh, but you're right. I did forget that very nice and expensive Underground Railroad Museum that draws an average of, what about a hundred visitors a month and only exists because of the bogus civil rights settlement from 2001? Not sure how the city is in so much debt now that I think about it.

The Banks have started construction. I went past it last weekend as I went across the Roebling Bridge. Why can't it be successful? Because Newport is there? So what? So we should give up and quit because they were first?

I didn't know that the casino was going to be built in OTR. Maybe if more people would go downtown and brave big bad Cincinnati they might find out it has more to offer than they think. It's also safer than people think too.

But hey, don't find out for yourselves. Just stick to reading the paper and listening to what the news tells you.

By the way, I used to work in Lawrenceburg. It sucks. Now I work near OTR and walk thru and around there everyday.

You shouldn't give up and quit on the Banks. The city should kick itself for missing out on at least a decade of prosperity the Banks could have brought that may have been able to stave off this economic crisis. Never was a proactive government, never will be.

OTR is what, within one to two miles of the casino spots? At most? Until that area is cleaned up, people will not want to drive through there or park near there or do anything near there, especially go into or come out of a casino with large amounts of cash on them late at night. You WALK through the middle of OTR everyday? Ok, congrats. Obviously you don't work a night shift because I doubt you'd be so bold, or perhaps foolish. The police have all but given up on that section and you even try to defend it?

And you assume I've never been to Cincinnati? I used to work there. I used to practice law there. I used to work off Linn Street behind Cincinnati Chili. You say Lawrenceburg sucks? Why? I've given you my reasons in re Cincy.

...and my old job is there. Therefore, it sucks!

Ok, I'll defer to you on that one. As far as being in Indiana, I'll defer to Hoosier on that issue.

[gregstephens]

As far as I'm concerned, as long as we got the Cleveland deal where we kept the colors, history and were guaranteed a team, I couldn't care less if SoP took his ball and left town. Give us new owners with a new philosophy and I don't think we could do much worse over a long term stretch, as long as the Lerners aren't involved.

As far as Hamilton County's problems are concerned. That county and the city of Cincinnati are two of the most messed up political communities I've ever seen. I don't live there, I don't shop there unless I absolutely have to and I can honestly see Cincinnati becoming the next Detroit in the next 5-10 years.

Cincinnati becoming the next Detroit is about as likely as the city getting a Cleveland Browns deal from the NFL...

Think so? Needing 30 million additional to operate as a county is a pretty good start. The Banks project has been a bust. There is no sustainable entertainment or night life in the city boundaries itself. It has a recent history of longtime retail tenents leaving in droves. It has a recent history of residents leaving in droves. It has a crime problem with which the local system and jail cannot keep up.

The only thing that can possibly throw it a life boat a this point is the casino but, frankly, I think the turnouts and revenues will be disappointing because, let's face it, Lawrenceburg isn't that far away and it's alot safer to go to at night.

1. How can the Banks be a bust? It hasn't been finished yet.

2. People will stay and gamble downtown because Lawrenceburg sucks. Being downtown isn't dangerous. People just think it is because they never go downtown.

1. Hasn't been finished yet? How about hasn't been started yet? How about, would never be started but for the casino? The Banks are a bust because they could have had what Newport has and didn't take advantage. Were it not for a vote on a casino gambling referendum statewide, nothing would EVER be done with the Banks. Newport was a dump that used their side of the water to revitalize the city. Cincy...not so much.

2. Lawrenceburg doesn't suck. It's easy to get to right off I-275. It's easy to negotiate because you don't have a bunch of contradictory one-way streets and confusing exit exchanges. Traffic is never a problem. And, Lawrenceburg wasn't named the most dangerous city in the US based on crime per capita (see Over the Rhine). Plus, as my colleague has correctly pointed out, the smokers will drive a little extra way to gamble.

Oh, but you're right. I did forget that very nice and expensive Underground Railroad Museum that draws an average of, what about a hundred visitors a month and only exists because of the bogus civil rights settlement from 2001? Not sure how the city is in so much debt now that I think about it.

The Banks have started construction. I went past it last weekend as I went across the Roebling Bridge. Why can't it be successful? Because Newport is there? So what? So we should give up and quit because they were first?

I didn't know that the casino was going to be built in OTR. Maybe if more people would go downtown and brave big bad Cincinnati they might find out it has more to offer than they think. It's also safer than people think too.

But hey, don't find out for yourselves. Just stick to reading the paper and listening to what the news tells you.

By the way, I used to work in Lawrenceburg. It sucks. Now I work near OTR and walk thru and around there everyday.

You shouldn't give up and quit on the Banks. The city should kick itself for missing out on at least a decade of prosperity the Banks could have brought that may have been able to stave off this economic crisis. Never was a proactive government, never will be.

OTR is what, within one to two miles of the casino spots? At most? Until that area is cleaned up, people will not want to drive through there or park near there or do anything near there, especially go into or come out of a casino with large amounts of cash on them late at night. You WALK through the middle of OTR everyday? Ok, congrats. Obviously you don't work a night shift because I doubt you'd be so bold, or perhaps foolish. The police have all but given up on that section and you even try to defend it?

And you assume I've never been to Cincinnati? I used to work there. I used to practice law there. I used to work off Linn Street behind Cincinnati Chili. You say Lawrenceburg sucks? Why? I've given you my reasons in re Cincy.

The "power" of the casinos will be enough to get people downtown. What if the developers have considered the "safety" issue? What does it hurt to try with the casino? How do we ever improve if we don't do things differently? That's been the downfall of this city the last 20, 80, 200 years. It's been it's fear driven conservativism. What if, what if, what if???? Hell, we won't know until we try.

Lawrenceburg is out of the way, it's in Indiana, and my old job is there. Therefore, it sucks!

One casino will not save the city. Detroit has three.

[cincyhokie]

One casino will not save the city. Detroit has three.

Maybe.

But neither will fear and inaction.

If GABP would have been built in the right place the casino location might be a non-issue.

[gregstephens]

One casino will not save the city. Detroit has three.

Maybe.

But neither will fear and inaction.

[gregstephens]

One casino will not save the city. Detroit has three.

Maybe.

But neither will fear and inaction.

If GABP would have been built in the right place the casino location might be a non-issue.

Not disagreeing here either. But it's vastly the same brain trust that made that decision that still has the keys to the store, or different people associated with the same brain trust.

[cincyhokie]

One casino will not save the city. Detroit has three.

Maybe.

But neither will fear and inaction.

If GABP would have been built in the right place the casino location might be a non-issue.

Not disagreeing here either. But it's vastly the same brain trust that made that decision that still has the keys to the store, or different people associated with the same brain trust.

I guess I tend to not get hung up so much in the past, who's to blame, etc. I really don't care who/what/how we got here. I guess I could blame the city 200 years ago for not investing into rail and letting Chicago go that route.

I just look for and notice progress. I see the signs that things can change. I'm hopeful that they can continue. This city has a huge black eye. It's not going to heal overnight. Are we as good as we were 15 years ago? No. Are we better than we were last year? Yes. This is all I care about. Moving forward.