Sirius reports that the Bengals expect A. Smith holdout

[walzav29]

This doesn't surprise me, but it's things like this that get people to sour on Cincinnati. Even with a very encouraging off-season. It seems hard for the "Here we go again" syndrome not to set in. I never understood how they signed Palmer so fast, but they usually have a holdout with bad results. If I'm not mistaken Pollack, Perry, and Rivers were hold outs who had short rookie years due to injury.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

This doesn't surprise me, but it's things like this that get people to sour on Cincinnati. Even with a very encouraging off-season. It seems hard for the "Here we go again" syndrome not to set in. I never understood how they signed Palmer so fast, but they usually have a holdout with bad results. If I'm not mistaken Pollack, Perry, and Rivers were hold outs who had short rookie years due to injury.

Palmer was a #1, so I'm sure they negotiated before the draft.

Regarding the others, it's hard to tie injuries to their holdouts. Like with Rivers, I don't think that's why he got laid out by Hines.

This holdout won't go in the same bin as the others, as far as 'typical Bengals'. This one will be engineered by Keels, who Smith went with after a little bait and switch during the draft. However, it's still the Bengals' faults for going with the weirdo, if in fact things go bad. You definitely can't say they weren't warned.

[ArmyBengal]

This is quite possibly the most DUH topic of the entire offseason. I mean seriously, we are talking about the Bengals front office and the #6 pick in the draft. Was there ANYONE who didn't see the high possibility of a hold out with our future pick after finding out where we would be picking ?? It's like writing an article telling everyone why you think the sky is going to be blue today.

Is there a high chance that A. Smith holds out ?? Sure, but no higher than with just about anyone the Bengals would have taken at #6 and you can't let your own personal opinion of his boobs cloud your opinion. Another thing to consider is the fact that they already have a ceiling with the Sanchez contract a spot above him and the bottom end of the #6 contract from the year before, so they already know the ballpark in which they are operating. I think that goes a long way to assist in getting this done.

Not only that, the Bengals have prepared for this possibility when they made the decision to move him to RT and have Whitworth at LT from the get go. If there is a holdout, Collins should take the RT spot and we move on until Smith gets done. I will say this and be done though, when Smith gets signed, he steps in with little to no thought of how well Collins is doing.

[walzav29]

I know this was obvious, but this offseason seemed different. I can't remember when they signed so many high profile Free Agents along with a good draft, so I thought maybe a little savvy would be used in getting A. Smtih in on time.

[ArmyBengal]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean "topic" as in thread, I meant it as in Sirius reporting it as if no one has ever thought this might happen.

Sorry for the confusion !!!

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Is there a high chance that A. Smith holds out ?? Sure, but no higher than with just about anyone the Bengals would have taken at #6 and you can't let your own personal opinion of his boobs cloud your opinion.

I must respectfully disagree. With a normal Bengals pick, you're looking at missing a week or so of camp, give or take. Maybe a couple weeks. This one, I'm thinking long haul. I'm on record as putting the over/under at Sep 1. I think most of his signability issues are due to Andre being Andre (and yes, I'm officially giving him the Manny Ramierez treatment).

I'm really not worried about his boobies. I'm far more worried about his brain.

[gregstephens]

Is there a high chance that A. Smith holds out ?? Sure, but no higher than with just about anyone the Bengals would have taken at #6 and you can't let your own personal opinion of his boobs cloud your opinion.

I must respectfully disagree. With a normal Bengals pick, you're looking at missing a week or so of camp, give or take. Maybe a couple weeks. This one, I'm thinking long haul. I'm on record as putting the over/under at Sep 1. I think most of his signability issues are due to Andre being Andre (and yes, I'm officially giving him the Manny Ramierez treatment).

I'm really not worried about his boobies. I'm far more worried about his brain.

I'm just the opposite here. I don't think it's Andre being Andre. Andre listens to those around him, to a fault. Manny, not so much. That's why I was more concerned than others about the agent switch (the second one). I think Smith had stuck with Rick Smith, we'd been ok. The brainiac Andre has now is the same brainiac that told him to do the goofy combine stuff. I don't think Andre misses any regular season, but I don't see him coming much before that, either.

[ArmyBengal]

Is there a high chance that A. Smith holds out ?? Sure, but no higher than with just about anyone the Bengals would have taken at #6 and you can't let your own personal opinion of his boobs cloud your opinion.

I must respectfully disagree. With a normal Bengals pick, you're looking at missing a week or so of camp, give or take. Maybe a couple weeks. This one, I'm thinking long haul. I'm on record as putting the over/under at Sep 1. I think most of his signability issues are due to Andre being Andre (and yes, I'm officially giving him the Manny Ramierez treatment).

I'm really not worried about his boobies. I'm far more worried about his brain.

Going back to the 2001 draft only 3 players missed MORE than 10 days of camp (Davis Pollack, Chris Perry, and Justin Smith). So with that, I agree that the timeframe you mention is correct. What I don't agree with is the thought that A. Smith will be a longer holdout for the sole purpose of him being A. Smith. I simply think we were going to be looking at a holdout of about the same timeframe regardless of the pick at #6. Once again, I think with the over and under for salary already determined, we are in a much better situation than most probably think we are at this point in time. I don't expect a Justin Smith type holdout, but my speculation is no different from anyone elses...

I also hate the whole "Manny being Manny", "Chad being Chad", or "Andre being Andre" thing people use.

My personal opinion equates the need to use that expression to meaning the person is an asswipe. Why not just say, the guys an asswipe ??

Then again, maybe that's "ArmyBengal being ArmyBengal" huh and yes I concede the asswipe comment that is to follow...

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

I also hate the whole "Manny being Manny", "Chad being Chad", or "Andre being Andre" thing people use.

My personal opinion equates the need to use that expression to meaning the person is an asswipe. Why not just say, the guys an asswipe ??

Then again, maybe that's "ArmyBengal being ArmyBengal" huh and yes I concede the asswipe comment that is to follow...

Agree on all points above!

I was alluding to a Bill Simmons (espn.com) article in which he makes exactly the point you make - that anytime you say "X is being X", you're really saying that "X is an asswipe." And in this case, yeah, Andre's being an asswipe. Why don't I just call him an asswipe? Because he's our asswipe. The "X is just being X" thing is solely reserved for players on *your* team. Them's the rules.

I don't disagree that the slot issues will be really bad - but you add on agent-switching and general douchebaggery, and things become much worse. If somebody told me that the Bengals would be the first NFL team this century to let a pick re-enter the draft next year, would I be stunned?

Nope.

[ArmyBengal]

Honestly, the only thing that gives me concern that the holdout will be longer than I originally thought is the agent change. I was comfortable with his agent when he was drafted and apparently so were the Bengals. Not so much now. Outside of that, I'm not concerned.

[Kazkal]

I can't even remember how much camp did rivers miss???? my biggest worry is the jaguars have had problems with holdouts what 33days? last year and more likely Mikey wants to see how much they pay Monroe...

[Pidge]

Shame, but nevermind. Collins and Whit to start the season initially. Hopefully they stay fit and if he is needed later on he'll have caught up by then.

[BengalPimp]

Bengal brothers.....Its not quite as easy as it may seem. To date, the only 1st rd picks to sign, are both QB's, who generally work on a different pay scale, as a lot of their contract is contigent on playing time, and incentives. Stafford (6yrs $72mil---$41.7 mil guaranteed) and Sanchez (5yr $60 mil---$28 mil guaranteed, both seem to avg $12 mil annually, regardless of the fact that one was a #1 overall, and the other was #5.

That said, in order for the Bengals to have a realistic number in signing Andre, they would first need St. Louis to sign Jason Smith at #2. I can pretty much guarantee that Jason Smith's contract at #2 overall will avg less annually than Sanchez at #5. With the main difference being that Jason Smith will probably get more money guaranteed.

At this point, we are pretty much waiting to see what St. Louis will pay a Tackle.

[ArmyBengal]

Well Dorsey was sitting at #5 last year and signed a 5 yr, 55 mil, with 22 mil guaranteed and Gholston at #6 signed a 5 yr, 50 mil, with 21 mil guaranteed. Gholston's contract was incentive laden and if he didn't hit those, the contract would max out at 32.5 mil. With the increase Sanchez got and considering he's a QB, I would think A. Smith would get somewhere in the neighborhood of "around" 5 yr, 57 mil, with 25 mil guaranteed. I would also see the contract being something similar to Gholston's in the fact the Bengals will want to inlcude incentives. Honestly, it's the incentives of the contract that will hold things up, not the actual number amount.

[BlainThePain]

Thank God for Anthony Collins.

[ArmyBengal]

Thank God for Anthony Collins.

And seeing as how prior to the draft many here had him starting at either one of the two tackle positions, I can't see where having him in there, if and when a holdout occurs, will present a major problem. I actually have confidence in what Collins brings to the table and love having him listed as a backup at both tackle spots.

What ?? Solid depth ?? Say it ain't so !!!

[HairOnFire]

I can't even remember how much camp did rivers miss????

Without looking it up I'd guess 10 days and roughly 20 practices.

my biggest worry is the jaguars have had problems with holdouts what 33days? last year and more likely Mikey wants to see how much they pay Monroe...

I agree. In fact I'm guessing a Jason Smith signing wouldn't help the Bengals much, but an agreement between the Jags and Camp Monroe should/would neatly slot Andre Smith. And that's troubling because the Jags recent history of signing early picks isn't much better than Cincy's.

On a positive note, the Bengals recent signings of late round picks is proof that they're actually engaged in negotiations earlier than in past years.

[ArmyBengal]

You guessed correctly Hair. Rivers missed 10 days...

[Kazkal]

How about Hall? Now only if they could pull what ever type of magic the year they signed Jjoe....Well I guess that was because it was a late 1st >_<

[ArmyBengal]

Here's the info that was posted on PFT, but originally came from CincyJungle:

Last year, linebacker Keith Rivers missed ten days.

In 2007, cornerback Leon Hall missed a practice before getting his deal done.

In 2006, cornerback Johnathan Joseph signed on the first day of training camp.

In 2005, linebacker David Pollack missed nearly three weeks.

In 2004, running back Chris Perry missed more than 10 days.

In 2002, tackle Levi Jones signed on the first day of camp.

In 2001, defensive end Justin Smith missed all of training camp and the preseason.

The sole exception was quarterback Carson Palmer, who signed before the draft as the first overall pick.

Akili Smith also held out for 27 days in 1999 and Willie Anderson missed the first three weeks of training camp in 1996.

http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/06/21/...-smith-holdout/

[Kazkal]

Well last 3 years haven't been too bad but at the same time.....QB @ 5 who makes as much as QB who went 1st per year......

Hopefully Keels is reasonable and doesn't try get QB money lol....Which Hobson implied that he wasn't in todays QnA...

[Baraka]

Here's the info that was posted on PFT, but originally came from CincyJungle:

Last year, linebacker Keith Rivers missed ten days.

In 2007, cornerback Leon Hall missed a practice before getting his deal done.

In 2006, cornerback Johnathan Joseph signed on the first day of training camp.

In 2005, linebacker David Pollack missed nearly three weeks.

In 2004, running back Chris Perry missed more than 10 days.

In 2002, tackle Levi Jones signed on the first day of camp.

In 2001, defensive end Justin Smith missed all of training camp and the preseason.

The sole exception was quarterback Carson Palmer, who signed before the draft as the first overall pick.

Akili Smith also held out for 27 days in 1999 and Willie Anderson missed the first three weeks of training camp in 1996.

http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/06/21/...-smith-holdout/

i was going to post about the pessimism that you all were flinging around regarding the potential for a hold out . . .

but that is staggering

[ArmyBengal]

Well, I've been breaking up Hobson's new piece to apply to the different threads on the forum and this seems to fit here.

Since Lewis arrived here seven drafts ago, one player was signed before the NFL Draft (Carson Palmer) and three missed so little time that they were able to start Opening Day in cornerbacks Johnathan Joseph and Leon Hall and linebacker Keith Rivers. In the three years before that, No. 1s Peter Warrick and Levi Jones were in on time and so were their two overall No. 1 picks in the '90s, Dan Wilkinson and Ki-Jana Carter.

So I don't think you can say the Bengals have put "trying to screw it up" on a spreadsheet.

But there is no question they've had their share of holdouts. If agents have a penchant for holding guys out, then the Bengals haven't backed down.

Justin Smith had Jim Steiner for his 40-plus day holdout while Chris Perry had Eugene Parker and David Pollack had Tom Condon's group in their three-week stalemates. Steiner represented the Vikings' Bryant McKinnie a year after he had Smith and that was a 98-day holdout. A year after he had Perry, Parker held out the Bears' No. 1 pick, Cedric Benson, for 30-plus days. Last year Condon's group, CAA, represented the Jags' Derrick Harvey in a 43-day holdout.

I'm not saying the agents didn't have legit gripes and reasons. But with certian guys the Bengals aren't alone and, to be fair, they've also shown they can do timely deals.

Yet there is no question that a holdout with the No. 1 this year in right tackle Andre Smith makes no sense on either side. Smith is tabbed as the Opening Day starter and he needs all the reps he can get.

The belief is that Alvin Keels represents Smith and he's had some veteran tussles in his past, such as Chiefs running back Larry Johnson a few years ago holding out of training camp for three weeks and running back Leon Washington boycotting the Jets' voluntary workouts this spring.

But that doesn't mean Keels and the Bengals won't be able to do a deal. Keels has shown no signs of asking for a Mark Sanchez-like deal. Smith went the pick after Sanchez at No. 6, and Sanchez got a $28.5 million guarantee in a deal that has been reported as more than 50 percent over the No. 5 slot of '08. If Keels comes at them with something similar, they're going to argue that it is a quarterback's deal and those are inherently different and more expensive.

The Bengals have a lot riding on Smith and they need him in on time. But at what cost to the rest of their salary structure for a guy that has yet to take an NFL snap?

http://www.bengals.com/news/hobson-online/...40-8a99e599cfa7