BengalszoneBilly Posted June 11, 2004 Report Share Posted June 11, 2004 ESPN.comEach week during ESPN.com's offseason overviews we'll have two of our experts debate an issue for each division in Fact or Fiction. Today's Fact or Fiction question: The Bengals will take the next step and move to the top of the AFC North.FACT by Mark Schlereth The Ravens are set defensively, but they didn't address some major offensive concerns during the offseason. The wide receiver position is still a deficiency and the starting QB is still technically a rookie. They haven't made themselves a better team. In Pittsburgh, the Steelers aren't going to be as good a defensive squad as they have in the past. They are losing some linebackers and haven't upgraded a weak secondary from last year. Meanwhile, Cincinnati seems primed to take over the helm as the division leader with its major parts from last year coming back. The Bengals won't suffer through the turmoil other teams in the division will go through and that will be enough for Marvin Lewis to turn this squad around. FICTION by Merril Hoge It's nearly impossible for a team to make the jump to the top of a division with a young quarterback like Carson Palmer leading the way. To be successful in this transition without an experienced guy running the offense, a team needs a dominating defense and running back. Simply put, the Bengals don't have either. While their defense will be improved this season as the personnel gets more acclimated to Marvin Lewis' scheme, it won't dominate. With Palmer at quarterback instead of Jon Kitna, this offense simply isn't going to be better than last year's because of the youth behind center. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirkendall Posted June 11, 2004 Report Share Posted June 11, 2004 Both make very valid points.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalszoneBilly Posted June 11, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2004 Both make very valid points.. True...they do. But Merill Hoge is forgetting the most important thing in the quarterback comparison when he stated, "With Palmer at quarterback instead of Jon Kitna, this offense simply isn't going to be better than last year's because of the youth behind center." He forgot to include in the ABILITY factor!As our math wizards (mat & skyline) here will tell you...to come up with the correct solution in any equasion, all quotients must be accurate. Hoge's wasn't, but that's understandable being that he's a former Squeeler and has reason to sell the Bengals short! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengalsfansince68 Posted June 12, 2004 Report Share Posted June 12, 2004 In this whole debate about experienced vs. inexperienced qb's you have to examine each situation. In ours, Kitna has the experience, but I at least believe that Carson's talent and potential dwarfs what Kit has, had, or ever will have. People overplay the experience factor and underplay the kind of qb he has the potential to be. I think this is a great situation for him to start what will become known as the "Carson Palmer era". With Marvin this team will be Super Bowl contenders in 2005 & 2006. And maybe in 2004. At some point this team will take another quantum leap as we begin to get Carson Palmer production as opposed to John Kitna production. I believe there will be a huge difference.No offense Kit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbarian Posted June 14, 2004 Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 In this whole debate about experienced vs. inexperienced qb's you have to examine each situation. In ours, Kitna has the experience, but I at least believe that Carson's talent and potential dwarfs what Kit has, had, or ever will have. People overplay the experience factor and underplay the kind of qb he has the potential to be. I think this is a great situation for him to start what will become known as the "Carson Palmer era". With Marvin this team will be Super Bowl contenders in 2005 & 2006. And maybe in 2004. At some point this team will take another quantum leap as we begin to get Carson Palmer production as opposed to John Kitna production. I believe there will be a huge difference.No offense Kit. I'm sorry--but I'm not seeing it. Carson Palmer needs a hell of a lot of time to get adjusted--meaning more time than 2-3 years.It has been proven that Palmer is a very slow learner. In the NFL, that's going to take some time.Plus, the Bungles didn't sign ANYONE they wanted in Free Agency. That also means trouble.For this year, Merrill Hoge is dead-on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPW Posted June 14, 2004 Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 There ya go again Barbarian.....Would you mind answering a couple of questions.Just how has it been "PROVEN" that Palmer is a "VERY SLOW" learner ?Why the F..... would any team sign players IF they did Not Want them ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalszoneBilly Posted June 14, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 It has been proven that Palmer is a very slow learner. C'mon Barbarian, the reports out of the mini-camps are running 180 degrees counter to this claim! Willie Anderson, our Pro Bowl lineman has exclaimed as much, and I think he knows Palmer a hell of alot better than Homo-Hoge, or any of us here for that matter! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirkendall Posted June 14, 2004 Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 Yea, I've never heard anything about Palmer being a slow learner.. Not saying you haven't heard it, but I question the source you may have gotten it from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbarian Posted June 14, 2004 Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 There ya go again Barbarian.....Would you mind answering a couple of questions.Just how has it been "PROVEN" that Palmer is a "VERY SLOW" learner ?Why the F..... would any team sign players IF they did Not Want them ? Many reports have stated that his collegiate coaches have said that Palmer is a slow learner. Question the coaches at USC--not me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WorldBFree Posted June 14, 2004 Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 The fact that he had to learn no less than three different offenses in his career at USC and won the Heisman means he is a learner, not a slow learner.He has had one full year to learn Brat's offense, the same amount of time he had under Chow before he began his Heisman winning season. How bout that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbarian Posted June 14, 2004 Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 The fact that he had to learn no less than three different offenses in his career at USC and won the Heisman means he is a learner, not a slow learner.He has had one full year to learn Brat's offense, the same amount of time he had under Chow before he began his Heisman winning season. How bout that? Then that tells me that Palmer is going to have BIG friggin problems in the ever-changing face of the NFL.If it took Palmer until his middle senior year to learn the offense of a COLLEGE OFFENSE--then how long do you think it will take him to learn an NFL OFFENSE???Or how about this--how about we wait until January to argue about this??? Then you can call me an idiot all you like or visa versa.BTW, thanks for strengthening my argument. And if the Bungles don't have a good season and they end up getting rid of Bob Drunkowski--then guess what????? Yep, that's right--Carson Palmer has to learn a new system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirkendall Posted June 14, 2004 Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 they end up getting rid of Bob Drunkowski-- I actually hope this happens.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevnz Posted June 14, 2004 Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 The fact that he had to learn no less than three different offenses in his career at USC and won the Heisman means he is a learner, not a slow learner.He has had one full year to learn Brat's offense, the same amount of time he had under Chow before he began his Heisman winning season. How bout that?Then that tells me that Palmer is going to have BIG friggin problems in the ever-changing face of the NFL.If it took Palmer until his middle senior year to learn the offense of a COLLEGE OFFENSE--then how long do you think it will take him to learn an NFL OFFENSE???Or how about this--how about we wait until January to argue about this??? Then you can call me an idiot all you like or visa versa.BTW, thanks for strengthening my argument. And if the Bungles don't have a good season and they end up getting rid of Bob Drunkowski--then guess what????? Yep, that's right--Carson Palmer has to learn a new system. Get a clue, three systems in five years would mess up any QB. It took him what, 1 year to get a totally new system and win the heisman with it? Gimme a break. How does that justify him being called a slow learner? His college systems were pro systems anyway.And if Brat leaves, there are several candidates on staff that would get the job and any offensive coordinator worth two cents won't try to put a QB in a system that doesn't fit him. So maybe some adjustments but not a total rewrite of the playbook. You are grasping at straws to try to rip the Bengals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrandom42 Posted June 14, 2004 Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 The fact that he had to learn no less than three different offenses in his career at USC and won the Heisman means he is a learner, not a slow learner.He has had one full year to learn Brat's offense, the same amount of time he had under Chow before he began his Heisman winning season. How bout that?Then that tells me that Palmer is going to have BIG friggin problems in the ever-changing face of the NFL.If it took Palmer until his middle senior year to learn the offense of a COLLEGE OFFENSE--then how long do you think it will take him to learn an NFL OFFENSE???Or how about this--how about we wait until January to argue about this??? Then you can call me an idiot all you like or visa versa.BTW, thanks for strengthening my argument. And if the Bungles don't have a good season and they end up getting rid of Bob Drunkowski--then guess what????? Yep, that's right--Carson Palmer has to learn a new system. Not just A college offense, but 4 of them! SC had 2 different HCs and 4 different OCs during Carson's time. That offensive genius Paul Hackett (now with the Jets) tossed the entire 49er West Coast Offense into the lap of a true freshman and told him he had 6 weeks to learn the whole playbook. It normally takes a season for a pro QB to learn the WCO, and longer to pick up all the little stuff. Just a little steep learning curve for some one fresh out of HS football, you think?As for the rest, SC was an asylum until Pete Carroll came in and brought Norm Chow to run the offense. Did you realize that the year Carson broke his collarbone, they were practicing running the old Houston Veer? Talk about ugly! Chow stripped out all the gimmicks, and then sat down and actually tutored Carson in running his offense. What a concept, a college coach who would actually TEACH! I still remember all the critics who said Terry Bradshaw was just "too dumb" to be playing pro football. Good thing the Hall of Fame didn't agree! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPW Posted June 14, 2004 Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 There ya go again Barbarian.....Would you mind answering a couple of questions.Just how has it been "PROVEN" that Palmer is a "VERY SLOW" learner ?Why the F..... would any team sign players IF they did Not Want them ?Many reports have stated that his collegiate coaches have said that Palmer is a slow learner. Question the coaches at USC--not me.IF you Statement is based in Fact and there are these Many Reports.....POST some of them.I have never heard of anybody calling Palmer a VERY SLOW Learner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalszoneBilly Posted June 14, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 IF you Statement is based in Fact and there are these Many Reports.....POST some of them.I have never heard of anybody calling Palmer a VERY SLOW Learner. I too read the report that stated Carson was a slow learner from his USC coaches, but between Marvin Lewis' and Willie Andersons comments contradicting the statement made by college level coaches...I'll tend to believe the professionals, thank you very much! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrishcovga Posted June 14, 2004 Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 Barbarella's a moron... As much as D-Coordinators will want to throw everything at Palmer, Cincy' has too many weapons to contend with. Johnson and Washingtons deep speed , along with Warricks ability to get open underneath means Palmer will have quite a few games resembling his Senior year at USC.Secondly : If Palmer was slow..? , then how did he keep the starting spot each year..at USC. Matt Leinart showed last year how well he could play and he put up better numbers than Palmer, so obviously Palmer has the stuff ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jditty47 Posted June 14, 2004 Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 his USC off corr coach was just in town and on bengals.com saying that palmer took to the offense fast, and he had to know like 3 diff off in like 3 yrs cuz of changes in coaches etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengalsfansince68 Posted June 15, 2004 Report Share Posted June 15, 2004 Barbie, you are the personification of pessimismI sure would love to take you on on the line of scrimmage.Then we would find out how much you really know about football.No offense intended. :player: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTBengalsFan Posted June 15, 2004 Report Share Posted June 15, 2004 There ya go again Barbarian.....Would you mind answering a couple of questions.Just how has it been "PROVEN" that Palmer is a "VERY SLOW" learner ?Why the F..... would any team sign players IF they did Not Want them ?Many reports have stated that his collegiate coaches have said that Palmer is a slow learner. Question the coaches at USC--not me. right, and i've heard reports that carson is really an alien here to rape our women and pillage our villages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirkendall Posted June 15, 2004 Report Share Posted June 15, 2004 There ya go again Barbarian.....Would you mind answering a couple of questions.Just how has it been "PROVEN" that Palmer is a "VERY SLOW" learner ?Why the F..... would any team sign players IF they did Not Want them ?Many reports have stated that his collegiate coaches have said that Palmer is a slow learner. Question the coaches at USC--not me. right, and i've heard reports that carson is really an alien here to rape our women and pillage our villages Well if that's the case, I'd say we put Kitna in for a game or so... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R-U-D-I Posted June 15, 2004 Report Share Posted June 15, 2004 Is it possible to revoke Barbara's 'All-Pro' status??Just a question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
williamnminor Posted June 15, 2004 Report Share Posted June 15, 2004 Barbarian you are a loser. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbarian Posted June 15, 2004 Report Share Posted June 15, 2004 Barbarian you are a loser. William, can you elaborate on this???Go ahead--I dare you to call me out in the Smack Forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengalsfansince68 Posted June 15, 2004 Report Share Posted June 15, 2004 Barbie,The smack forum is where you belong. Where all the idiot clones go to spew their moronic bullsh!t. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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