Forget Andre Smith...

[Whur CHad At?]

I think the fact that we didnt talk to him should say something

[Wraith]

"I think the fact that we didnt talk to him should say something"

Nobody talked to him and thats the point, the dude bailed on the combine before have structured meetings with any team. As a former business owner, if I had a guy not show up for an interview I would NEVER hire him, not even for a janitor. As an employer you have the trust your employees and how can you trust someone who can't even show up for the interview, who thinks more of himself than the team. Coming off letting his team down in the Bowl Game this puts up WAY too many red flags.

[HAPPYJAQ]

"I think the fact that we didnt talk to him should say something"

Nobody talked to him and thats the point, the dude bailed on the combine before have structured meetings with any team. As a former business owner, if I had a guy not show up for an interview I would NEVER hire him, not even for a janitor. As an employer you have the trust your employees and how can you trust someone who can't even show up for the interview, who thinks more of himself than the team. Coming off letting his team down in the Bowl Game this puts up WAY too many red flags.

Yeah, the Bengals would not pick a guy like that in a million years, after all the negative pub lately with drafting questionable players. That would set this team back 10 years. He may even be completely off of their draft board. I wonder how many millions he lost in the process. The only negative for us is that another player Top 5 talent goes down the drain in a very top heavy but moderately deep draft.

[Baraka]

and marvin always talks about trust regarding his players, no way to this kid

[HairOnFire]

We'll see. If it's as you describe and he's in football shape but not combine shape that's one thing. I'd heard he was simply in *bad* shape. I'm certainly not worried about the guy's 40 time any more than you are. Still, I am worried about why he just didn't train for the combine. Everybody knows to get in shape for the combine. This guy comes from a big football school, so it's not like it should have been a mystery.

It is what it is and nothing more. It's a warning. And if there's more to the story then I'd back away nearly as quickly as many of you have already done. But after listening to several months of talk about how the Bengals are supposedly locked into OT at #6 am I supposed to believe they wouldn't consider a prospect who a week ago wasn't projected to be available simply because he left the combine early? As for what type of shape he might be in, despite his oh so brief appearance didn't he stick around long enough to suprise plenty of people by weighing less than many had guessed? In fact, didn't he tip the scales exactly at his listed playing weight?

Just saying...

[HairOnFire]

He may even be completely off of their draft board.

If true there better be another much bigger shoe dropped in the coming weeks because the combine story isn't enough to justify what you're talking about.

[Wraith]

Remember he let down his entire team during the Sugar Bowl by having illegal contact with an agent. Alabama got beat by Utah because they couldn't control the offensive line of scrimmage and Smith, had he played, would have made all the difference so in a very real sense he cost his team the Sugar Bowl. Now we here that he leaves the combine even though coaches have asked him to stay for interviews. This indicent falls right in line with a player who values himself above the team, doesn't follow rules, will not do the little things the coaches demand if he thinks he should be doing something different. All of these things point to a player who will not succeed in the NFL.

[HAPPYJAQ]

He may even be completely off of their draft board.

If true there better be another much bigger shoe dropped in the coming weeks because the combine story isn't enough to justify what you're talking about.

Completely blowing off the only guaranteed job interview you'll have with all 32 teams in the biggest weekend of your professional football life isn't enough? Imagine the outrage if the our Cincinnati Bengals selected this guy and he turned out to indeed be a bust? With NFL teams having a high emphasis on high-character guys, I could see him completely falling out of the first round. I wouldn't touch him before the 4th, but then again I think he's a good, not great, prospect.

There were major questions about this guy (outside of his ability) coming in.

This is far different than the Crabtree situation.

[HairOnFire]

All of these things point to a player who will not succeed in the NFL.

So because he's fugged up his dealings with agents in nearly every way possible teams should ignore the miles of impressive film that this guy has put in the can?

Alabama got beat by Utah because they couldn't control the offensive line of scrimmage and Smith, had he played, would have made all the difference so in a very real sense he cost his team the Sugar Bowl.

And there it is. A guy who can be "all the difference" between winning and losing.

[HairOnFire]

Completely blowing off the only guaranteed job interview you'll have with all 32 teams in the biggest weekend of your professional football life isn't enough?

But it isn't the only job interview he'll get with those teams. In fact, he can schedule an individual workout at the time of his choosing and be reasonably assured every team in the NFL that was interested in him previously will indeed show up. As for interviews, in a few weeks teams will happily line up to buy Smith a steak dinner just for the opportunity to talk.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

He may even be completely off of their draft board.

If true there better be another much bigger shoe dropped in the coming weeks because the combine story isn't enough to justify what you're talking about.

You have to think about it in context - it implies that this kid maybe can't handle pressure, can't handle the requirements of being an NFL player. If that's true, you don't want him.

Like Jaq's saying, think of it like a job interview. Say you were offered $30M out of college if you just take a silly little standardized test (GRE, whatever). And it's pretty easy to study for the test. And nobody really gives a rat's ass what you get on the test. And everybody who's eligible takes the test, but you completely flake out, don't study, and quit right after you show up. You're telling me that employer isn't looking elsewhere?

He definitely needs to satisfy teams that he's not going to go Ricky Williams when he gets his money. It's possible that he's just a decent kid who needs an authority figure to tell him what to do. Could be. But based on his odd behavior, I think there's at least a 20% chance that he's a flake who will self-destruct in his first or second offseason. Is he that good that it's worth taking him over a safer pick who's not fuggin' nuts at #6?

To me, he ain't *that* good. If it were me, sitting at 6, there's a strong likelihood that at least one (or more) of Sanchez, Stafford, or Crabtree will be available. I'd be inclined to let some stupid team overpay for one of the QBs, or a smarter team to grab Crabtree. Or if all three are gone, that means there's a lot to choose from at 6. This is a draft pretty top-heavy in OL/DL/LB, no reason to go after a question mark.

[Wraith]

You obviously have no experience in evaluating personnel....The LAST thing you need as an employer using a "team" approach is someone deciding for themselves what is or is not important the fact that we have had two issues in the last 3 months with this guy making decisions based solely on his wants rather than what is in the best interest of the team is a huge RED Flag for how this guy will act in the workplace. Yes teams could set up individual meetings but the purpose of the NFL combine is to have a forum for all the teams to talk to players thus saving the teams the time cost of traveling to meet the player individually. This time of the year teams are engrossed in Free Agency and they have to evaluate 1,000s of draft eligible players so taking the time to travel and meet a player outside the combine environment damages the team because it takes several people away from the evaluation for several days. Thus, you evaluate the employee as someone who won't work well in a team environment, who will place his own interests ahead of the teams, will not follow instruction. As a employer I would toss this guy's resume in the trash because I don't need those kinds of problems on my team. I am evaluated based up my performance by my investors and my family (when/if the business fails) and so I have to be accountable for my decisions.

[HAPPYJAQ]

He may even be completely off of their draft board.

If true there better be another much bigger shoe dropped in the coming weeks because the combine story isn't enough to justify what you're talking about.

You have to think about it in context - it implies that this kid maybe can't handle pressure, can't handle the requirements of being an NFL player. If that's true, you don't want him.

Like Jaq's saying, think of it like a job interview. Say you were offered $30M out of college if you just take a silly little standardized test (GRE, whatever). And it's pretty easy to study for the test. And nobody really gives a rat's ass what you get on the test. And everybody who's eligible takes the test, but you completely flake out, don't study, and quit right after you show up. You're telling me that employer isn't looking elsewhere?

He definitely needs to satisfy teams that he's not going to go Ricky Williams when he gets his money. It's possible that he's just a decent kid who needs an authority figure to tell him what to do. Could be. But based on his odd behavior, I think there's at least a 20% chance that he's a flake who will self-destruct in his first or second offseason. Is he that good that it's worth taking him over a safer pick who's not fuggin' nuts at #6?

To me, he ain't *that* good. If it were me, sitting at 6, there's a strong likelihood that at least one (or more) of Sanchez, Stafford, or Crabtree will be available. I'd be inclined to let some stupid team overpay for one of the QBs, or a smarter team to grab Crabtree. Or if all three are gone, that means there's a lot to choose from at 6. This is a draft pretty top-heavy in OL/DL/LB, no reason to go after a question mark.

Exactly my point.

You're going to have to pay this guy 25-35 million dollars in guaranteed money. If he's a bust, he sets your Franchise back in regards to his cap number being so high that it minimizes your ability to retain players and sign free agents, especially if he is not impacting your team to the positive on gameday. As I said before, you shouldn't have to look at reasons to draft a guy as a Top 6 player. A Top 6 player should be a Day 1 starter, a building block for your franchise and a future leader of the team. I don't see any of those as applying to Andre Smith, other than perhaps being a starter at RT and I'm not convinced he can play better there than Whit or Collins or well enough to justify selecting him that high.

[HairOnFire]

Like Jaq's saying, think of it like a job interview. Say you were offered $30M out of college if you just take a silly little standardized test (GRE, whatever). And it's pretty easy to study for the test. And nobody really gives a rat's ass what you get on the test. And everybody who's eligible takes the test, but you completely flake out, don't study, and quit right after you show up. You're telling me that employer isn't looking elsewhere?

But is that what really happened? Jamie Dukes, a guy who actually played OT in the NFL, seems to be giving more credence than most to Smith's explanation about training to lose weight being more important to him in the last couple of weeks than training for track events. And let's face it, had Smith handled the verbal portion of your test better nobody would be questioning why he wasn't working out in Indy, right? Top players skip whatever workouts they want all the time. Others make it seem like a big deal if they agree to lift weights or run a single 40-yard dash. The big difference is those players play that particular type of game far better than Smith has. But rather than saying so what, as I'm tempted to do, I'll ask instead how big a deal is that? How big of a shid am I supposed to give?

BTW, fan favorite Alex Mack isn't working out at the combine despite acknowledging how slight his ankle injury is. Said something to the effect that he's not working out for anybody unless he's 100%. So who amongst is is impressed? And who is outraged?

[HairOnFire]

You obviously have no experience in evaluating personnel....

I hire and fire people. It's one of the hats I wear. And I've been doing it in some capacity for more than a couple of decades.

Can you say as much?

Not that it matters much because neither of us are talking about a normal job interview, are we?

And that's the point.

[Wraith]

Yes, but did Alex Mack interview with teams? Yes. An interview is not based upon "conditioning" so why not do that, why leave when you have setup 15-20 "job interviews" with player personnel? If this was one horribly bad decision I could chalk it up to a mistake but this, on the heels of the Sugar Bowl thing starts to become a trend and trends cannot and should not be ignored. You simply cannot risk your future on a kid with this kind of character, do you think Sabin gave this kid a good review?

[HairOnFire]

A Top 6 player should be a Day 1 starter, a building block for your franchise and a future leader of the team. I don't see any of those as applying to Andre Smith, other than perhaps being a starter at RT and I'm not convinced he can play better there than Whit or Collins or well enough to justify selecting him that high.

But despite all of the above you're in favor of drafting Michael Oher.

[HAPPYJAQ]

Like Jaq's saying, think of it like a job interview. Say you were offered $30M out of college if you just take a silly little standardized test (GRE, whatever). And it's pretty easy to study for the test. And nobody really gives a rat's ass what you get on the test. And everybody who's eligible takes the test, but you completely flake out, don't study, and quit right after you show up. You're telling me that employer isn't looking elsewhere?

But is that what really happened? Jamie Dukes, a guy who actually played OT in the NFL, seems to be giving more credence than most to Smith's explanation about training to lose weight being more important to him in the last couple of weeks than training for track events. And let's face it, had Smith handled the verbal portion of your test better nobody would be questioning why he wasn't working out in Indy, right? Top players skip whatever workouts they want all the time. Others make it seem like a big deal if they agree to lift weights or run a single 40-yard dash. The big difference is those players play that particular type of game far better than Smith has. But rather than saying so what, as I'm tempted to do, I'll ask instead how big a deal is that? How big of a shid am I supposed to give?

BTW, fan favorite Alex Mack isn't working out at the combine despite acknowledging how slight his ankle injury is. Said something to the effect that he's not working out for anybody unless he's 100%. So who amongst is is impressed? And who is outraged?

Dukes was a LG that converted to C in '89 and played there for 7 more seasons. He never played LT.

I'm outraged at the fact that he showed irresponsibility in his actions at the NFL's Scouting Combine. It's not just of matter of him deciding not to work out or interview. These teams gauge the most minute of details, down to whether a player can follow directions in drills or not. He's had since mid January to prepare for this event and he clearly got a headstart in blowing the bowl game at Alabama, too.

Another thing that bothers me is that Nick Saban couldn't even get this guy in shape in college and Saban is a former Pro coach who's teams are routinely considered to be amongst the best conditioned teams in the country.

As it's often said, it's not what you say or do but it's how you say or do it. Mack, Crabtree and others did it the right way and showed responsibilty in how they presented themselves to NFL teams, regarding their injuries. Leaving the Combine early to "workout" with his personal trainer has to be telling teams that he doesn't take his potential NFL career seriously or he's taking it for granted. Part of an evaluation is a guy's potential and he's already showing you that he is not willing to work hard year round. It's the exact same reason that Pat Sims fell to us in the 3rd round, while he had 1st round talent as an All 1st team SEC performer, against some of the nation's best.

There's no way you can pick Andre Smith as your highest overall pick in 10 years and one of the highest drafted Bengals ever.

[HairOnFire]

Yes, but did Alex Mack interview with teams? Yes.

And props for that. Perhaps he can address Mike Mayock's claim that Mack spends way too much time on the ground, ehh? But ignoring the Mayock perpective for a moment, why should I look at Mack's decision to not work out simply because he's not quite 100% differently than Smith's admission that he hasn't trained for track events and doesn't want to compete in them until better prepared?

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

But is that what really happened? Jamie Dukes, a guy who actually played OT in the NFL, seems to be giving more credence than most to Smith's explanation about training to lose weight being more important to him in the last couple of weeks than training for track events. And let's face it, had Smith handled the verbal portion of your test better nobody would be questioning why he wasn't working out in Indy, right?

Correct. If he had shown up, did all the interviews well, and said "I'm not running, I'm not jumping, I'm not playing twister because this ain't football and I'm focused on getting in football shape" I'd actually have been kind of impressed. It's the running away without telling anyone that concerns me. Do recall that tidbit - he skipped town without telling the people he was working with and they sent out a search party for him. That's a little embarassing.

There are also reports that the one-on-one interviews he did conduct at the combine were horrible.

It's also not clear that the assumption that he's in shape is correct. Some unattributed reports (take them for what you will) called him 'fat'. This time of year there's no way to say what's real and what's not, but this ain't good for the kid.

Anyway, there's two distinct issues - 1) is he in shape? and 2) what's wrong with his head? I'd want to know each of them exactly before picking him earlier than #15.

Top players skip whatever workouts they want all the time. Others make it seem like a big deal if they agree to lift weights or run a single 40-yard dash. The big difference is those players play that particular type of game far better than Smith has. But rather than saying so what, as I'm tempted to do, I'll ask instead how big a deal is that? How big of a shid am I supposed to give?

BTW, fan favorite Alex Mack isn't working out at the combine despite acknowledging how slight his ankle injury is. Said something to the effect that he's not working out for anybody unless he's 100%. So who amongst is is impressed? And who is outraged?

The issue is the communication. If that's what Mack is doing, then he's handling his business like a man instead of running away. Again, I want to reiterate - I don't care if Andre Smith runs the 40 or not, nor how fast he does so. But running away from a situation, that's bad news. That is in fact the issue here.

Now, that said, I'll play devil's advocate a bit - let's say he got burned from the Sugar Bowl agent thing, and that caused him not to sign with an agent in time to prepare for the combine (both physically and people skills). And let's say that his demeanor is representative of the average player when he's not being micromanaged and polished by an agent prior to the combine. Maybe most players simply don't have the professionalism on their own to act like adults, and we're just seeing the uncut version with this kid. I might actually buy that.

Still a helluva risk. The question is, how many spots does his general unprofessionalism drop him? I still think it's too risky for #6 without a lot more unfiltered knoweldge. Now if Mikey trades down, grabs him at #15, picks up a couple of picks for his trouble, and the kid turns out to be a saint, then I'll be the first one to congratulate.

[HairOnFire]

Dukes was a LG that converted to C in '89 and played there for 7 more seasons. He never played LT.

So he knows less about the subject than you or Mike Mayock? Please.

[HairOnFire]

I'm outraged at the fact that he showed irresponsibility in his actions at the NFL's Scouting Combine.

And so is Mike Mayock. After all, who is Andre Smith to blow off the combine in the manner he did? Far better for him to show up and play the "I'm not working out" game in the same manner as everyone has done in the past. (Play acting for grownups.)

There's no way you can pick Andre Smith as your highest overall pick in 10 years and one of the highest drafted Bengals ever.

Maybe, but you've got to pick somebody and I'm not writing this guy off for the reasons given so far.

[Wraith]

Has Jaime Dukes ever run a business with employees other than a losely managed foundation with little or no accountablity, I do not know but I suspect he has never ran an organization day to day or else he would not react like this. This is a clear cut business situation with player personnel, this is not about the mechanics of football so I feel confident that, with 8 years under my belt managing my own business and having upwards of 20 people reporting to me, I can say yes, I have more experience with this type of situation than does Jaime Dukes.

[HAPPYJAQ]

Dukes was a LG that converted to C in '89 and played there for 7 more seasons. He never played LT.

So he knows less about the subject than you or Mike Mayock? Please.

I don't claim to know more about football than Jamie Dukes, who was an average-to-good Center at best for my hometown Atlanta Falcons. I would trust the evaluation of guys who evaluate NFL talent for a living over a network color commentator any day but I am cognizant that every team values players differently based on need, scheme, etc. I'd put Jamie Dukes in the same category with Deion, Faulk, Sapp, Woodson and any other former player on the NFL Network as far as evaluating talent goes. Deion said that Adam Jones would be a Pro Bowl corner this year and he was exposed on the playing field, let alone what happened to him off of it. Dukes said last year that Atlanta made a mistake in taking Matt Ryan over Glenn Dorsey and McFadden and that he'll never replace Michael Vick in Atlanta. It seems the Falcons did alright with that pick.

I don't dispute the fact that Andre Smith is maybe a top-10 talent. He proved that in college. My hang ups center around the fact that he doesn't embody what you expect to see from a guy who is picked #6 overall of all of the draft-eligible prospects in the country. There's simply too many questions about this player that are still unanswered and make him to risky of a gamble. Outside of that, I don't see much upside in the guy and you need a player at #6 that will eventually be the leader and face of the franchise as he develops throughout his career. As I said in a previous post, he's either a dominant guard or an average RT, at best, and you can find guys like that all day in later rounds.

[HairOnFire]

If he had shown up, did all the interviews well, and said "I'm not running, I'm not jumping, I'm not playing twister because this ain't football and I'm focused on getting in football shape" I'd actually have been kind of impressed.

So show up and do nothing and you're sufficiently impressed, but show up for the meet and greet and step on the scales before making a bad exit and you're quickly declared untouchable and removed from the board? Well call me crazy but that seems pretty harsh coming from someone who would have been impressed by nothing if the nothing was better presented.

It's the running away without telling anyone that concerns me. Do recall that tidbit - he skipped town without telling the people he was working with and they sent out a search party for him. That's a little embarassing.

Noted. A warning has been sent and the result is a player who was once considered by many to be the best player available in the entire draft has fallen from favor to such a degree that he's now in play at #6 or even later. So how s this a bad thing? How is having another option who might be worthy of consideration at #6 a negative? If there really is more to the story aren't the Bengals free to look elsewhere?

There are also reports that the one-on-one interviews he did conduct at the combine were horrible.

Rather ironic how he's being criticized for the interviews he did as well for the ones he didn't.

It's also not clear that the assumption that he's in shape is correct. Some unattributed reports (take them for what you will) called him 'fat'.

Well, he is fat. In fact, the gut that hangs over his belt is a perfect match for the one that has prevented Willie Anderson from seeing his own feet for years. That said, I could show you dozens of pre-combine rantings that projected Smith would top 340 when weighed, and a few others that guessed he'd tip 'em at 360. Instead, he showed up at his listed playing weight.

The issue is the communication. If that's what Mack is doing, then he's handling his business like a man instead of running away.

Mack is running away in nearly the same manner as Smith has. Both have refused to work out because they don't feel they're at 100%. Both are pointing to later dates for the individual workouts that will presumably make their case for them. The major difference in their two examples is how much better Mack has followed the now accepted method of blowing off the combine in a manner that ruffles the fewest feathers.

Now, that said, I'll play devil's advocate a bit - let's say he got burned from the Sugar Bowl agent thing, and that caused him not to sign with an agent in time to prepare for the combine (both physically and people skills). And let's say that his demeanor is representative of the average player when he's not being micromanaged and polished by an agent prior to the combine. Maybe most players simply don't have the professionalism on their own to act like adults, and we're just seeing the uncut version with this kid. I might actually buy that.

Me too, and I'm willing to wait a bit to see what the real truth might be.

Still a helluva risk. The question is, how many spots does his general unprofessionalism drop him?

Right now I'd say it's dropped him squarely into the conversation at #6....which is a good thing IMHO. Because if there really is more to the story the Bengals aren't obligated to stop his fall, are they? But would they have had the choice without this little fiasco?