Graham Tagged

[ArmyBengal]

^^^^

thank you army. it amazes me how so many people play the victim, instead of just being a fan, these boards are for discussions about all the ins and outs of our favorite franchise, as poorly run as it may be. it's pointless to hijack every thread with "mike brown sucks", if that's all you want to talk about i believe there are more than a couple sites that will surely oblige that kind of self-flagellation.

Victim? Huh?

The point is to call these things out AS THEY HAPPEN ahead of time, versus wondering why they finished 7-9 or 4-12 or start off 1-6 again next year, and people start blaming it on injuries or dumb luck, or wonder why Carson has no one to protect him or throw to next year. "Well if our first round pick didn't get injured and Chad wasn't hurt then they'd be winners" etc...,

No, they don't do the things in the off-season to improve, and the most active off-seasons were prior to the 2005 year when Marvin came in with a lot of pull to get people he needed (see Deltha, Thorton, Graham and James trades/pick-ups, etc..., etc...,).

Tagging "a kicker" is not unheard of, but this team can't hold onto their best position players because they want out, so they should be able to sign a kicker ahead of time without going there, ecspecially for a kicker they picked upon waivers. Why are they worried about slightly over-paying proven players to stay here, if they're shoving million under the mattress every year?

I applaud the increase in player payroll the last few years, at least up until 2006 when they started reverting back to their old ways, but they still don't spend it wisely, make timely decisions on personnel, have bad drafts, don't do anything creative or proactive, and lack any sort of effort or desire to get better, and take advantage of having a rare QB talent. It seems people like yourself are "just happy to have NFL football here in town." It's not real NFL football!! This is nothing like what the better teams and franchises experience. You don't know what that's like! 2005 is what it's like, and people went nuts for it here.

I am not worried about the $ they are paying Graham, it's the fact they just let TJ go without a fuss and are once again caught up in retaining and paying bit players and special teamers, versus executing any sort of plan or seeing that their most productive players are treated well and rewarded.

So says you. I'll tell you what, gather up all the rantings and b*tches about Mike Brown and send them to him to see if he has anything for it. If he doesn't, what makes anyone here think we would ?? It's pointless to complain about it. Once again, I hate the guy and his inability to do what appears to be the simplest of things. I'm just not willing to talk about it in every post like I'm coming up with some unheard of position on the state of the organization.

[gregstephens]

It seems people like yourself are "just happy to have NFL football here in town."

Get over yourself, pinprick.

Actually, and my esteemed colleague HOF can comment being a California guy, but I'd rather have a team to root for, even in the bad times, than be in a position like LA. So, yeah, I gripe like everyone else, but I am happy to have an NFL team here in town. Sure, SoP plays on that, knowing shmucks like me will do anything to keep them (see the Toilet Bowl by the River), but I don't want them to leave. No fan in this city wants them to leave.

So, as SoP says, sue us.

[HAPPYJAQ]

I will root for the Bengals of Cincinnati for the rest of my life, win or lose, as I have for the last 25 years or so.

I remember thinking "Eddie Brown is nice, but Jerry Rice would've been SWEET!"

I remember being excited about the Jeff Query slant.

I remember thinking we should play Don Hollas/Brandon Bennett/David Dunn/Tremain Mack more.

I remember thinking that Jeff Blake would win a Super Bowl with a better defense.

I remember thinking James Francis/David Klingler/Dan Wilkinson/Ki-Jana Carter/Akili Smith/Peter Warrick would turn this team around.

I remember going to Riverfront Stadium/Cinergy Field when it was half empty.

The 2005 season was a blessing and a curse. A lot of "Bengals fans" finally showed up during/after that season. TSome of them have since gone back to wherever they were before then. The Bengals fans before the "Bengals fans" know the difference between now and 1990. These same fans know what it'll take to get back to 1988. All that said, I love my team and am optimistic that we can be one of the NFL's best franchises again. I see the "small things" that Marvin is doing to help change the atmosphere of this franchise and appreciate what he's been able to do, with so many factors against him.

In today's NFL, where the (Phoenix) Arizona Cardinals can make the Super Bowl, the Bengals are not that far off.

[Jet23]

Interesting comments from Eric Thomas (ET) on the Alan Cutler show this morning. He said 'Shayne has never really kicked us into anything, but he sure has kicked us out of something'. He obviously agrees with me that the true value of a kicker is how he performs in 'crunch time'. Shayne may turn out to be clutch, but he certainly has not proven this to date. This is why you can not compare him being tagged to Vinatieri, who was the greatest clutch kicker of all time. He went on to say that he believes that Graham is a solid kicker, but not worthy of top 5 money. 'If you want the guy, why not go ahead and sign him.'

I realize that every ex-jock is going to have an opinion, but I have always enjoyed ET's analysis.

[HairOnFire]

This is why you can not compare him being tagged to Vinatieri, who was the greatest clutch kicker of all time.

The comparison stands. Kickers get tagged. Punters get tagged. And for all of the debate about whether Opie is clutch I can reluctantly accept the tag due to my feelings Graham was as likely to leave without bothering to give the Bengals a chance to match as Housh, and for far less money.

[ArmyBengal]

First, name the top five kickers in the league in your opinion. I'll immediately disagree if Graham isn't included, but go ahead. If on your list Graham DOES appear, why wouldn't you think he should be paid as a top 5 kicker then ?? The tag would then be justified right ??

The big thing with Graham is when you look at the fact the uncapped year is coming, do you really want to give a bigger contract than what it would cost to tag him if the money is going to be guaranteed ?? Why pay him 3 million per year with 6-9 million up front in guaranteed money when you can gain his services for far less ?? Work on the contract the following year if that is the issue and see if he's still the guy you want. If not, let him go and then take your chances on a replacement.

[Jet23]

First, name the top five kickers in the league in your opinion. I'll immediately disagree if Graham isn't included, but go ahead. If on your list Graham DOES appear, why wouldn't you think he should be paid as a top 5 kicker then ?? The tag would then be justified right ??

The big thing with Graham is when you look at the fact the uncapped year is coming, do you really want to give a bigger contract than what it would cost to tag him if the money is going to be guaranteed ?? Why pay him 3 million per year with 6-9 million up front in guaranteed money when you can gain his services for far less ?? Work on the contract the following year if that is the issue and see if he's still the guy you want. If not, let him go and then take your chances on a replacement.

I would put the following kickers ahead of Graham:

Vinatieri

Bironas

Stover

Jeff Reed

Hanson

Kasay

Elam

Dawson

Throw in the fact that even though his kickoffs have improved, he is still average at best. Also, all of the above have made multiple game winning kicks. I do not believe any of them cost their team a playoff appearance by missing a chip shot.

[Jet23]

15th in Touchback %

16th in FG %

32nd in average kickoff yardage

and ZERO 50+ field goals

Explain how that translates into a top 5 kicker?????????????????

[HAPPYJAQ]

First, name the top five kickers in the league in your opinion. I'll immediately disagree if Graham isn't included, but go ahead. If on your list Graham DOES appear, why wouldn't you think he should be paid as a top 5 kicker then ?? The tag would then be justified right ??

The big thing with Graham is when you look at the fact the uncapped year is coming, do you really want to give a bigger contract than what it would cost to tag him if the money is going to be guaranteed ?? Why pay him 3 million per year with 6-9 million up front in guaranteed money when you can gain his services for far less ?? Work on the contract the following year if that is the issue and see if he's still the guy you want. If not, let him go and then take your chances on a replacement.

I would put the following kickers ahead of Graham:

Vinatieri

Bironas

Stover

Jeff Reed

Hanson

Kasay

Elam

Dawson

Throw in the fact that even though his kickoffs have improved, he is still average at best. Also, all of the above have made multiple game winning kicks. I do not believe any of them cost their team a playoff appearance by missing a chip shot.

It's hard to measure kickers on other teams as kickers are often times like OL with their mistakes being magnified. I'd be willing to bet that all of those kickers have missed clutch kicks in their careers. If you consider range, accuracy, clutch ability and kickoff ability (some of the guys on that list don't kick off), I'd only put Vinatieri and Bironas clearly ahead of Shayne.

It's also interesting to note that Vinatieri, Hanson and Elam have been Franchise tagged in their careers and the Titans said they would've tagged Bironas this year, had they not been able to sign him to an extension.