In Hindsight

[HoTbOy]

With the Bengals having to draft LB's and WR's in this past years draft, I just got to wondering if this was a case of I told you so...With DPollack out(with injury) and CHenry, OThurman the '05 draft class is a wash, even DWeathersby the Bengals would not be taking this 1 step forward 2 steps back kind of thing...DPollack does not count because he got injured but these other players were picked with some high picks, maybe DWeathersby was a 4th, if these players would have worked out imagine what the Bengals could have had, but they didn't and look and what we got...Do you as an owner or fan ever draft a questionable player again no matter how much he can improve your team or is this a case of lesson learned???

[Stripes]

I'd do it again. And again after that.

[Walrus]

With the Bengals having to draft LB's and WR's in this past years draft, I just got to wondering if this was a case of I told you so...With DPollack out(with injury) and CHenry, OThurman the '05 draft class is a wash, even DWeathersby the Bengals would not be taking this 1 step forward 2 steps back kind of thing...DPollack does not count because he got injured but these other players were picked with some high picks, maybe DWeathersby was a 4th, if these players would have worked out imagine what the Bengals could have had, but they didn't and look and what we got...Do you as an owner or fan ever draft a questionable player again no matter how much he can improve your team or is this a case of lesson learned???

If I were Mike Brown, the first thing I would do is lock myself in a room in Siberia during the month of April.

But before I left, I would give the team, say, 4 "Bust Licenses" which could be used to sign players of questionable character/durability. When a such a player is signed, his license would be tacked on a bulletin board next to his picture and would remain tacked there until the time that said player plays in, say, 32 regular season games as a Bengal. After that, they can take the license and spend it on the next "bargain". If a guy violates his "Bust License" and craps out prior to his 32 games, that license is suspended for a year or two.

This would only apply to players with pre-existing issues to the time of signing (not to a guy like Pollack who nobody knew would get hurt). And at least 3 licenses are already in use (by Brooks, Rucker and Shirley).

Honestly, I'm only half-kidding about this. I'm half-serious, but I'll leave it up to you to determine which half is which.

[jjakq27]

Odell had some previous issues before they drafted him so that was one that they could have passed over. Henry, from what I remember, had on-field issues more than anything off the field so maybe they thought they could keep him in check and teach him how to be a pro as Marvin would say.

But it is easy to look back at a team or a draft year and spot holes and busts. But the Bengals are no different than every other team. Go look at draft history of any year and the first and second rounds are littered with flops, busts and bad luck. And it's across every team not just here.

[Walrus]

But it is easy to look back at a team or a draft year and spot holes and busts. But the Bengals are no different than every other team. Go look at draft history of any year and the first and second rounds are littered with flops, busts and bad luck. And it's across every team not just here.

*Every* other team? I can point to many ways the Bengals are different than every other team. Not the least being that their name is currently in the gutter due to past (and perhaps present) excesses in this area. But aside from that, this reminds me of one of mom's favorite sayings, "If everyone else jumped off a bridge, would you jump off the bridge?"

[fattyjay]

Odell had some previous issues before they drafted him so that was one that they could have passed over. Henry, from what I remember, had on-field issues more than anything off the field so maybe they thought they could keep him in check and teach him how to be a pro as Marvin would say.

But it is easy to look back at a team or a draft year and spot holes and busts. But the Bengals are no different than every other team. Go look at draft history of any year and the first and second rounds are littered with flops, busts and bad luck. And it's across every team not just here.

I'd have to agree with most of what you are saying. I have looked at other teams draft history in the past, and even teams like the Steelers and Patriots are lucky if the get two or three starters out of an average draft year. The draft isn't where this team has had trouble. I would argue that its the special treatment of certain players that has done the most damage.

[chrishcovga]

You're not drafting Rhode Scholars here, you're drafting professional athletes! Yes, In a heartbeat, would I draft players of ill-conceived backgrounds.

Good Guys are great, but there few " Jerry Rice's " And a whole lot more Nate Newton and Mike Irvins' out there!!!

And how soon we forget, in '2005 Henry and Thurman were stellar in their on-field performances, but immaturity caused them dearly.

- Thurman is done. It's a shame. But Henry may still have a shot. If the Bengals are committed to Simpson and Caldwell, then this " Henry " talk is all smoke.

- If They realize that Simpson and Caldwell aren't ready to help this team right away, then waiting 4 games for Henry makes a whole lot more sense than waiting on Antonio Chatman's next injury!

[jjakq27]

But it is easy to look back at a team or a draft year and spot holes and busts. But the Bengals are no different than every other team. Go look at draft history of any year and the first and second rounds are littered with flops, busts and bad luck. And it's across every team not just here.

*Every* other team? I can point to many ways the Bengals are different than every other team. Not the least being that their name is currently in the gutter due to past (and perhaps present) excesses in this area. But aside from that, this reminds me of one of mom's favorite sayings, "If everyone else jumped off a bridge, would you jump off the bridge?"

I am not talking about "many ways" here. I am talking about the ability to pick so-called character guys and guys that pan out in general. I will agree that the Bengals have their share of administrative issues but that's not what I was referring to. The fact that every team has draft busts and every team gets their share of rotten eggs is all I was getting at.

Every year around Super Bowl time we get to watch highlights and praise the exploits of Michael Irvin, LT and the 1970's Steelers among others. Win and people forgive and forget the rest.

And I'm not sure I get the "bridge" thing either. Are you saying the Bengals justify these incidents, etc. by saying that it happens in the rest of the league therefore it's OK when it happens to us?

I had the fortune or misfortune (depending on your perspective) to work in NE Ohio for a period of time and as an interested observer I heard the same complaints and "grass is always greener everywhere else" attitude from Browns and Indians fans as I did from Cincinnati sports fans. And this was in the Marty Schottenheimer era which by most outsiders would be considered a very successful period in Browns history. But they had the Drive and the Fumble happen to them and it was Marty, Modell and the coaches fault for not getting better players or teaching better.

So I think it's funny when we get slammed for bad drafts and small scouting dept. but no one every says anything about their ability to get guys like TJ, Rudi, Kelly Gregg, Marquand Manuel, Ndukwe or Corey Lynch (this year) after the third round. Not that the Bengals haven't stepped in it a bunch of times but again, same stuff in every city.

[HAPPYJAQ]

I think coaching and the front office management has been a factor, too. As you mention, Manuel and Gregg, the Bengals have had players on their roster that have gone on to be better pros once they left here. If you were curious as to who else, I can mention Alfred Williams, Jay Fiedler, Don Hollas, Kimo Von Oelhoffen, Mike Goff, Sam Shade, Kevin Walter and others as players that were drafter here and left, with many of those players either winning or starting for Super Bowl-caliber teams. You can even players like Spikes, Dillon, Darryl Williams, Hearst, Neal, Steinbach and more that were great players here that had greater success in other places. I like the fact that my team takes chances on players as many HOF's had character issues/personal issues that they overcame through great play on the field. Marino, LT, Cris Carter, Moss, Sapp, Curtis Martin and more had more than enough problems coming into the draft that would make them low-round picks by today's standards and they all ended up being HOF caliber players. When you roll the dice, it's all about risk reward.

If you are a true Bengals fan, you can remember Collinsworth (too slow), Pickens/Scott (too controversial), Willie (too lazy), Blake (too short) or even current day Bengals Rudi/T.J./Hall (too slow), Palmer/White (not intelligent/competitive enough), Chad (4.6 speed at the combine, too slow/inexperienced), Nduke (too inexperienced after being a college WR), Geathers/Joseph (too inexperienced as early declares for the draft), and see that sometimes the best players come from calculated gambles/good scouting. Bottom line is, the pundits are not always right.

[jjakq27]

Bottom line is, the pundits are not always right.

Kinda like weathermen.

And here's Mel Kiper with today's forecast....

[Sandwedge]

I think coaching and the front office management has been a factor, too. As you mention, Manuel and Gregg, the Bengals have had players on their roster that have gone on to be better pros once they left here. If you were curious as to who else, I can mention Alfred Williams, Jay Fiedler, Don Hollas, Kimo Von Oelhoffen, Mike Goff, Sam Shade, Kevin Walter and others as players that were drafter here and left, with many of those players either winning or starting for Super Bowl-caliber teams. You can even players like Spikes, Dillon, Darryl Williams, Hearst, Neal, Steinbach and more that were great players here that had greater success in other places. I like the fact that my team takes chances on players as many HOF's had character issues/personal issues that they overcame through great play on the field. Marino, LT, Cris Carter, Moss, Sapp, Curtis Martin and more had more than enough problems coming into the draft that would make them low-round picks by today's standards and they all ended up being HOF caliber players. When you roll the dice, it's all about risk reward.

If you are a true Bengals fan, you can remember Collinsworth (too slow), Pickens/Scott (too controversial), Willie (too lazy), Blake (too short) or even current day Bengals Rudi/T.J./Hall (too slow), Palmer/White (not intelligent/competitive enough), Chad (4.6 speed at the combine, too slow/inexperienced), Nduke (too inexperienced after being a college WR), Geathers/Joseph (too inexperienced as early declares for the draft), and see that sometimes the best players come from calculated gambles/good scouting. Bottom line is, the pundits are not always right.

One of the best post I've read in a longtime!!! I agree entirely... We've had our share of flub-ups, but we have done well in getting good players also... That doesn't seem to always translate into wins though..

[Walrus]

I am not talking about "many ways" here. I am talking about the ability to pick so-called character guys and guys that pan out in general. I will agree that the Bengals have their share of administrative issues but that's not what I was referring to. The fact that every team has draft busts and every team gets their share of rotten eggs is all I was getting at.

Every year around Super Bowl time we get to watch highlights and praise the exploits of Michael Irvin, LT and the 1970's Steelers among others. Win and people forgive and forget the rest.

The fact that everyone brings up guys like LT, Irvin, 70's Steelers, etc when issues of bad character come up tells me that character does matter insofar that bad characters leave a stain on personal and organizational reputations. And it's just not smart to discount the negative affect a bad-character guy can have on his team's performance on the field *ahem-Stanley-Wilson-ahem*. Maybe others here would be happy if our team was full of drunken wife-beating steroid fiends who could win games, but I wouldn't be on board with that. Fortunately Goodell has made our disagreement on this point mostly moot because, as we all know, he'll just suspend such players. I just don't see too many HOFer's with the issues of Irvin, et al. playing under the tenure of Roger Goodell.

And I'm not sure I get the "bridge" thing either. Are you saying the Bengals justify these incidents, etc. by saying that it happens in the rest of the league therefore it's OK when it happens to us?

I had the fortune or misfortune (depending on your perspective) to work in NE Ohio for a period of time and as an interested observer I heard the same complaints and "grass is always greener everywhere else" attitude from Browns and Indians fans as I did from Cincinnati sports fans. And this was in the Marty Schottenheimer era which by most outsiders would be considered a very successful period in Browns history. But they had the Drive and the Fumble happen to them and it was Marty, Modell and the coaches fault for not getting better players or teaching better.

So I think it's funny when we get slammed for bad drafts and small scouting dept. but no one every says anything about their ability to get guys like TJ, Rudi, Kelly Gregg, Marquand Manuel, Ndukwe or Corey Lynch (this year) after the third round. Not that the Bengals haven't stepped in it a bunch of times but again, same stuff in every city.

I'm not criticizing the Bengals scouting -- I agree that the organization has done well in finding players in every round of the draft. This isn't about the grass being greener anywhere else, it's about making our own yard as green as possible. And one way I think we could help ourselves in that regard is to quit leaving dog turds all over the place (maybe taking the analogy too far? ). I'm not talking aobut drafting guys with no warts as players -- not suggesting we pass on the next Chris Collinsworth because he's a little "too slow". This is about the character issue insofar as guys who are suspended/in jail cannot help their team, no matter how talented they are.

[jjakq27]

I agree with your desire to field a clean team, etc. On that I do agree. I wish it were that easy.

My concern, and maybe this is an over generalization, is that it's getting increasingly difficult to find guys with perfect pasts. My fault with Marvin is that perhaps he believes a little too much in his ablility to mentor and coach guys up. I think it bit once too often on the last couple of years. Hopefully he and the organization are wiser for their experience.

I also believe that the draft and scouting process are not the exact science that everyone makes it out to be. It is merely a crapshoot. You can have all of Jerry Jones' money, expertise and "want to" but that is no guarantee.

[Walrus]

I agree with your desire to field a clean team, etc. On that I do agree. I wish it were that easy.

My concern, and maybe this is an over generalization, is that it's getting increasingly difficult to find guys with perfect pasts. My fault with Marvin is that perhaps he believes a little too much in his ablility to mentor and coach guys up. I think it bit once too often on the last couple of years. Hopefully he and the organization are wiser for their experience.

I also believe that the draft and scouting process are not the exact science that everyone makes it out to be. It is merely a crapshoot. You can have all of Jerry Jones' money, expertise and "want to" but that is no guarantee.

I think Marvin could be a great mentor for these guys -- if that was his job. Seriously, Chad seems to really esteem Marvin -- we always hear about the 3am phone calls. But maybe things have worked out well w/ Chad because it's his personality to be proactive and reach out to Marvin and not vice versa. I don't think Chris Henry or Odell Thurman had Marvin on speed dial.

The problem is, dealing with this many troubled guys is a full time job. Probably several full-time jobs. Which is why the Bengals need to take a look at getting some more/other people on the job if they're going to continue down this path. I just don't think Mike is willing/able to devote the resources necessary. Right now, I think it's Eric Ball's job to reach out to these guys. I don't know what's going on behind the scenes, but he hasn't been cutting it. The Cowboys have been very successful in setting up a program to handle troubled players. We should take a close look at what they're doing right.

It's great if Mike wants to be Mr. Second-Chance. But in this day and age it seems to take a bit more than a swift kick in the pants to get young men on the right track. Maybe dealing effectively with these guys would take more money than Mike is willing to spend. If that's the case (and I think it is), don't sign these guys.