Mike Brown speaks/No GM

[HoosierCat]

I do know that a competent coach with an eye toward overall control has a real opportunity to make a stamp on this organization.

I think you're right -- I just don't see it happening. The best any coach in Cincy can hope for right now is a (junior) seat at the table with the three-headed hydra of Mikey, Katie and her boy-toy Troy. And that isn't going to be enough for a control-oriented coach.

[The PatternMaster]

I do know that a competent coach with an eye toward overall control has a real opportunity to make a stamp on this organization.

I think you're right -- I just don't see it happening. The best any coach in Cincy can hope for right now is a (junior) seat at the table with the three-headed hydra of Mikey, Katie and her boy-toy Troy. And that isn't going to be enough for a control-oriented coach.

Why should they, what coach worth a damn is going to object to getting over-ruled on personell decisions by the threesome of MB, Katie and Troy Blackburn, all three of who were either birthed into or sleep their way into that position. If you judge the 3some's performe based on past performance they would be fired and unable to find work in the NFL.

That's why Marvin's friend told him to not take the job, but the man wanted to be a HC for a NFL franchise and didn't want to wait. As a fan of the Bengals I'm glad they hired him, but if the Brown family truly wants to be successful they need to totally step away from the day-to-day business and let real football people come in and do the job. However I imagine it would have to wait until 1) Marvin proves me wrong by winning a SuperBowl, 2) His contract runs or is fired..They can't make the necessary changes now because who ever they bring in was not the person who hired Marvin so it wouldn't be fair to change the structure of the organization on Marvin while he is still trying to win with the old model in place.

The absence of Pollack and Thurman are really hurting this franchise as those were two guys who were supposed to anchor the defense and neither one is playing in the NFL currently and their future status is very questionable.

[HairOnFire]

The best any coach in Cincy can hope for right now is a (junior) seat at the table with the three-headed hydra of Mikey, Katie and her boy-toy Troy. And that isn't going to be enough for a control-oriented coach.

That doesn't seem accurate. The Bengals situation has always been described as one where the bulk of all football related decisions are made by the head coach or the owner, a dynamic that wouldn't be unfamiliar in any NFL city. In fact, two thirds of your mythical hydra seem to be no more than paper pushers whose most important task is signing the players that are selected by others.

If anything, the third seat at the table is an open seat that is temporarily filled by position coaches and scouts who are given far greater opportunity to make their opinions known than in other organizations. Those opinions, once given, can be acted upon or ignored by the head coach or the owner....with the head coach almost certainly making most of the calls. As a result, the idea that Marvin or any other head coach lacks control is fairly ludicrous since no team owner ever surrenders total control....even if his team has hired a GM.

If I understand the rant, a GM with a string football background would more often side with Marvin, giving him a 2-1 majority over the owner, which may not mean anything beyond keeping score and providing plausible deniability. In addition, many of the current GM's populating the NFL landscape can't be described as football people, and have far more in common with front office types like Katie and Troy.

[HoosierCat]

The best any coach in Cincy can hope for right now is a (junior) seat at the table with the three-headed hydra of Mikey, Katie and her boy-toy Troy. And that isn't going to be enough for a control-oriented coach.

That doesn't seem accurate.

Yeah, it is. Go back to the first page of this thread and read Curnutte's story.

If I understand the rant, a GM with a string football background would more often side with Marvin, giving him a 2-1 majority over the owner, which may not mean anything beyond keeping score and providing plausible deniability.

I don't know what rant your referring to, but that isn't mine. Mine is that I want a professional player personnel department that will provide better information to the hydra, and which can be held responsible if too many of its calls turn out to be bad ones, and thus improved over time.

[kingwilly]

The best any coach in Cincy can hope for right now is a (junior) seat at the table with the three-headed hydra of Mikey, Katie and her boy-toy Troy. And that isn't going to be enough for a control-oriented coach.

That doesn't seem accurate. The Bengals situation has always been described as one where the bulk of all football related decisions are made by the head coach or the owner, a dynamic that wouldn't be unfamiliar in any NFL city. In fact, two thirds of your mythical hydra seem to be no more than paper pushers whose most important task is signing the players that are selected by others.

I disagree with this assertion. Katie and Troy both lobbied hard for Carson, while SoP wanted Leftwich.

They are heavily involved with personell decisions, as they are with the signing and papaerwork.

What is clear, though, is that Mikey call the shots and can overrule/veto all if he chooses. I think ML has had wide latitiude with the seletion of the character issue guys, and given the results, now it is likely we see Mikey pull back that control. That is my speculation.

I think this team will be getting worse, as in this year and next, before they get back on the upswing. The effects of the gambles in the draft and FA that have not paid off, for whatever reason, will be felt into 09. Even a GM will need time to fix it but at a better rate. As it is with no balance between the Browns/Coaches, the Bengals will be a three legged horse at the KY Derby.

[HairOnFire]

The best any coach in Cincy can hope for right now is a (junior) seat at the table with the three-headed hydra of Mikey, Katie and her boy-toy Troy. And that isn't going to be enough for a control-oriented coach.

That doesn't seem accurate.

Yeah, it is. Go back to the first page of this thread and read Curnutte's story.

Fair enough, I've now read the story twice....and confirmed my suspicion that Katie and Troy were never mentioned when the relationship between Marvin Lewis and Mike Brown was discussed. In fact, their names were never mentioned in the entire article...or in most others that attempt to define how decisions are made by the Bengals front office.

Confirming once again that a hydra is a mythical beast.

[HoosierCat]

The best any coach in Cincy can hope for right now is a (junior) seat at the table with the three-headed hydra of Mikey, Katie and her boy-toy Troy. And that isn't going to be enough for a control-oriented coach.

That doesn't seem accurate.

Yeah, it is. Go back to the first page of this thread and read Curnutte's story.

Fair enough, I've now read the story twice....and confirmed my suspicion that Katie and Troy were never mentioned when the relationship between Marvin Lewis and Mike Brown was discussed. In fact, their names were never mentioned in the entire article...or in most others that attempt to define how decisions are made by the Bengals front office.

Confirming once again that a hydra is a mythical beast.

ORCHARD PARK, N.Y. -- Bengals president Mike Brown has said he will not hire a general manager. He has told me that the team has, essentially, a three-headed general manager consisting of himself, team executive vice president Katie Blackburn and her husband, Troy Blackburn. Head coach Marvin Lewis also has a big say -- second only to Brown -- on personnel decisions. Brown also said the team does not need more scouts and has, in fact, added to the scouting department since hiring Lewis in 2003.

If the team's fans -- customers is a more accurate term -- don't like what's going on, don't buy the product. You're the ones who have sold-out 32 consecutive home games. Hamilton County taxpayers voted for the sales tax to build the stadium. Our elected officials negotiated the stadium lease and got out-lawyered.

Vote with your wallets. NFL football is entertainment and pulls from a household's pool of discretionary income.

[HairOnFire]

Bengals president Mike Brown has said he will not hire a general manager. He has told me that the team has, essentially, a three-headed general manager consisting of himself, team executive vice president Katie Blackburn and her husband, Troy Blackburn. Head coach Marvin Lewis also has a big say -- second only to Brown -- on personnel decisions.

Sorry, I didn't realize that piece was written by Curnutte. But it only confirms what Brown said directly in the interview I assumed you were talking about, that Lewis has personnel powers 2nd only to the team owner. Other interviews have confirmed the Blackburns role is limited to contract negotiations and legal matters, and that Brown often defers to his head coach.

That hardly seems like a deal-breaker for any coach, even a "control-oriented" type.

[HairOnFire]

I disagree with this assertion. Katie and Troy both lobbied hard for Carson, while SoP wanted Leftwich.

That's news to me. It was widely speculated that the Bengals had already decided on Carson Palmer long before bringing Leftwich in for an interview, in part because Mike Brown was so adamant about selecting a franchise QB 1st overall, and had from the very start targeted Palmer. In addition, I've never heard Mike Brown speak of Palmer, before or after selecting him, that he didn't positively gush with praise.....including his comments made immediately after Palmer played in the Senior Bowl. Finally, after the draft Lewis openly dismissed the idea that the Bengals had ever seriously considered Leftwich...and noted the Bengals hadn't bothered using any other prospect for contract leverage.

If Brown would have been interested in Leftwich he not only could have forced the issue, but at the very least would have demanded the Bengals treat the idea more seriously than they did. Instead, Leftwich was treated as an afterthought from start to finish as the Bengals devoted all of their interest in Palmer.