Can you, will you, go through another 90's?

[akiliklingler]

If I hear TJ say "We're still better than that team," after a butt-kicking or another Bengal fan say, "You guys are negative, band wagon fans, you're not a real fan, the Bengals will turn it around," one more time I'm going to explode. This is a very, very, bad team and if you aren't cognizant of that fact, then you must be smoking some great stuff.

I want to know how many Bengal fans actually have it in their heart to go through another 90's/early 2000's? The signs are there that we could be headed for a very similiar situation. As a fan, would you go through that again, or just say forget it?

This team is years (four-six) away from being a contender. The defense was pretty bad in '03 and has gotten progressively worse each year. Our offense is good, but not good enough to score a touchdown on almost every possession to keep up with our defense's impotence.

Well, at least we'll get a high draft pick - who cares?!! Go down the Stealers roster and it's draft pick after draft pick. Where the h@#l are all of our draft picks? Yeah, we have some steals in the late rounds, but that doesn't make up having nothing to show for rounds 1 & 2. No team in the NFL can afford to come up snake eyes year in and year out with their first and second round picks - it's sets you years behind.

Out of the following players, who helps us win games this season? Peter Warrick, Mark Roman, Ron Dugans, Justin Smith, Chad Johnson, Sean Brewer, Levi Jones, LaMont Thompson, Matt Schobel, Carson Palmer, Eric Steinbach, Kelly Washington, Chris Perry, Keiwan Ratliff, Madieu Williams, Caleb Miller, Landon Johnson, David Pollack, Odell Thurman, Chris Henry, Jonathan Joseph, Andrew Whitworth, Frostee Rucker, Leon Hall, Kenny Irons, and Ahmad Brooks.

Those are all of our day one picks for this entire decade. How many of those guys are still on the team? Start? Contribute? Win games?

Fire Chuck B - definately. Fire Marvin - maybe. I like him, but I have to admit, he does make some questionable calls during the game and his team plays with no heart. Although I would be scared who MB chooses to replace him. I know everyone thinks trading Chad is a bad idea and he's not the root of our problems and I sort of agree. I also agree that our offense is going to be as potent (in all facets) w/out him. However, how many times against the Steelers does he show up? How many must-win games does he take command of? Is he really a guy you want your younger players looking up to? Trade him for a first round pick and hopefully a third as well. Use all of those picks to draft defense, defense, defense. I understand Palmer's the best player and to build around him, but how's that working out. If our defense was in the top 10 and even if our offense didn't have the skill players it has today, Carson would be good enough to score at least 14-17 points a game (even w/out Chad) and if our defense was good enough, that would be enough. A team with a great defense and a great QB is going to go a lot farther than a team with a good offense and a horrendous defense.

If this team doesn't make some type of change, I think we're in store for some long seasons for a long time.

[The PatternMaster]

good post, although I don't think we are heading towards another decade like the 90's for one reason, Carson Palmer. God bless his soul, when he signed that extension I bet he thought he was going to play for a winner for his career. Hey I just had a great idea, seeing how Carson went to bat for Watson and got him re-signed maybe they can make him the GM. lol! I'm sure he would make sure we got the right players and his locker room knowledge would come in handy when it comes time to re-negoitate contracts.

But I do agree that the focus should be on the defense because defense wins Championships, and that is the goal, right?? Look at Jags, they have solid defense and a consistantly under-performing offense but they win 8-10 games a year due to the defense which keeps them in games they should lose and wins games when the offense steps up.

I also agree that a major roster shakeup is in order, or atleast a major league tweak. We need some real playmakers, but those guys don't grow on trees, and more defensive talent, mainly in the back 7.

[walzav29]

I think not having many scouts is a reason for such poor drats. I find it annoying to see Asante Samuel shut down receiver after receiver and I think he was a free-agent. The Bengals draft #1 CB's and they suck. To answer your question. No. I don't want to go through another 90's. The only difference is Palmer. I say we go for Cowher.

[TIMEsteelersfan]

I think not having many scouts is a reason for such poor drats. I find it annoying to see Asante Samuel shut down receiver after receiver and I think he was a free-agent. The Bengals draft #1 CB's and they suck. To answer your question. No. I don't want to go through another 90's. The only difference is Palmer. I say we go for Cowher.

Wow... Cowher??? I never thought I'd hear a Bengals fan say that, but he would no doubt bring intimidation, discipline and success to a franchise that appears to be reeling once again. No way would a Cowher coached team ever have this bad a defense year after year. Bringing Cowher in would be the best thing that ever happened to the Bengals. I for one hope like heck that this doesn't happen, for obvious reasons.

[Bengals1]

I remember a Star Trek episode where Spock is being cross examined in a court marshal hearing and he’s asked how he can be so certain Kirk didn’t commit a crime when he didn’t even see it happen. Spock explains that people are like objects, they have certain characteristics that are unalterable, “If I drop a hammer on a planet with a positive gravity I need not see it fall to know it has in fact fallen.” He goes on to state.

I would argue that organizations, like many people and objects, also have certain immutable characterizations. One could easily say, “I need not see the Bengals stumble and bumble to know they have in fact stumbled and bumbled.”

Despite the absence of Woody Hayes the Buckeyes, decades after his passing still have a fine running game and a stingy defense. The Lakers, long after Magic and Kareem have departed still run the ball up court and look to “fast break” at every possible moment. The Yankees of 2007 are not much different than the Yankees of 1907 despite the century in between.

Coaches come and go; players come and go but teams for whatever reason, usually remain the same. Are the Steelers of today that much different than when Bradshaw was behind the center and Franco Harris was running the ball and Noll was coaching? Are the Cowboys with Romo so much different than they were with Aikman, or Staubach for that matter?

And if all that’s true than should we as fans really be surprised when the Bengals squander their window of opportunity and watch it close slowly about their necks like a hangman’s noose? Shula…. Coslett…. Lebeau…. Lewis has anything really changed much? Really? Even under the legendary Paul Brown the Bengals made the playoffs what? Twice? Wasn’t it only twice under Gregg and twice or so under Wyche too?

Has Marvin really fallen so far off the tracks here guys? Are things soooo much different now than they were in 1979 or 2003? And are you really shocked? Really? If so maybe you need to look inside yourself and ask why? What in their entire history made you think this administration would be different?, let alone better? Does SoP run things differently than his father did? Will he ever?

In the (now) immortal words of Dennis Greene “They are who thought they were!”

Or at least, they are who you should have known they would be.

[WhoDey93285]

I think not having many scouts is a reason for such poor drats. I find it annoying to see Asante Samuel shut down receiver after receiver and I think he was a free-agent. The Bengals draft #1 CB's and they suck. To answer your question. No. I don't want to go through another 90's. The only difference is Palmer. I say we go for Cowher.

Wow... Cowher??? I never thought I'd hear a Bengals fan say that, but he would no doubt bring intimidation, discipline and success to a franchise that appears to be reeling once again. No way would a Cowher coached team ever have this bad a defense year after year. Bringing Cowher in would be the best thing that ever happened to the Bengals. I for one hope like heck that this doesn't happen, for obvious reasons.

See signature.

Throw me in the Cowher boat.

[HairOnFire]

This team is years (four-six) away from being a contender. The defense was pretty bad in '03 and has gotten progressively worse each year. Our offense is good, but not good enough to score a touchdown on almost every possession to keep up with our defense's impotence.

I'm not buying it.....yet. I agree that this team is looking at a pretty substantial rebuild after this season, and for the record I support it. But it's ludicrous to assume that this team is four to six years away from being a contender. In fact, anyone who thinks the can accurately predict what next seasons NFL landscape will look like isn't paying attention. At best you can identify two or three teams who'll remain at the top and two or three more who remain at the bottom. Everything else churns.

Right now everyone sees a football team that has lost it's swagger, and they're not wrong. The defense is inept and the offense, far from being a team strength, isn't far behind. But IMHO the real question it faces is if the person most capable of overseeing the rebuild, Marvin Lewis, can survive this season with his swagger and credibility intact. And yesterdays game makes you wonder if he can.

None of us are in any position to know whether Marvin Lewis has lost this team, but in my opinion that's what the next 9 games will determine.

[cincy9275]

hair how will we know any better in 9 games if marvin has lost this team? i can read in the players comments and see in the players body language they are not happy with marvin.

[walzav29]

It's still a matter of expecting a coach to make Chicken Salad out of Chicken $!@#. Until it's a better organiztion as a whole, there is nothing that can happen. It's like the Fords in Detroit. The Lions will have a little run, but we all know Kitna. The Pats would beat the Lions 113 - 3.

[duus]

I think not having many scouts is a reason for such poor drats. I find it annoying to see Asante Samuel shut down receiver after receiver and I think he was a free-agent. The Bengals draft #1 CB's and they suck. To answer your question. No. I don't want to go through another 90's. The only difference is Palmer. I say we go for Cowher.

Wow... Cowher??? I never thought I'd hear a Bengals fan say that, but he would no doubt bring intimidation, discipline and success to a franchise that appears to be reeling once again. No way would a Cowher coached team ever have this bad a defense year after year. Bringing Cowher in would be the best thing that ever happened to the Bengals. I for one hope like heck that this doesn't happen, for obvious reasons.

See signature.

Throw me in the Cowher boat.

Throw me out of the boat if that happens. Maybe I would just have to 'get over' my hatred, but man would that be hard! There just has to be a different solution!

[WhoDey93285]

I think not having many scouts is a reason for such poor drats. I find it annoying to see Asante Samuel shut down receiver after receiver and I think he was a free-agent. The Bengals draft #1 CB's and they suck. To answer your question. No. I don't want to go through another 90's. The only difference is Palmer. I say we go for Cowher.

Wow... Cowher??? I never thought I'd hear a Bengals fan say that, but he would no doubt bring intimidation, discipline and success to a franchise that appears to be reeling once again. No way would a Cowher coached team ever have this bad a defense year after year. Bringing Cowher in would be the best thing that ever happened to the Bengals. I for one hope like heck that this doesn't happen, for obvious reasons.

See signature.

Throw me in the Cowher boat.

Throw me out of the boat if that happens. Maybe I would just have to 'get over' my hatred, but man would that be hard! There just has to be a different solution!

Hey, I don't like him either, but if he is the guy to take us to the Superbowl, guess who my new favorite person would be?

[akiliklingler]

Coaches come and go; players come and go but teams for whatever reason, usually remain the same. Are the Steelers of today that much different than when Bradshaw was behind the center and Franco Harris was running the ball and Noll was coaching? Are the Cowboys with Romo so much different than they were with Aikman, or Staubach for that matter?

I think your argument has holes in it. I understand your point in that maybe b/c of certain factors (Mike Brown) the Bengals can't change their stripes. However, before the 70's, the Steelers were the Bengals of the NFL. They had decades where they sucked. The Browns were one of the best teams in the NFL prior to the merger, which is a mirror image of their production during the last fifteen or so years. How about the Patriots, before Brady and company, they were nowhere near where they are now (wow 2 super bowls where they got blown out in each). How about the Dolphins of the 70's and 80's compared to today's team?

If you're point is that maybe the Bengals can't improve b/c of the short comings of their owner, then I agree with you. But to say that teams can't go from bad to good (or vice versa) just doesn't hold water. Therefore, as fans, although it turned out to be BS, I think we were entitled to believe we had turned the corner.

[duus]

I think not having many scouts is a reason for such poor drats. I find it annoying to see Asante Samuel shut down receiver after receiver and I think he was a free-agent. The Bengals draft #1 CB's and they suck. To answer your question. No. I don't want to go through another 90's. The only difference is Palmer. I say we go for Cowher.

Wow... Cowher??? I never thought I'd hear a Bengals fan say that, but he would no doubt bring intimidation, discipline and success to a franchise that appears to be reeling once again. No way would a Cowher coached team ever have this bad a defense year after year. Bringing Cowher in would be the best thing that ever happened to the Bengals. I for one hope like heck that this doesn't happen, for obvious reasons.

See signature.

Throw me in the Cowher boat.

Throw me out of the boat if that happens. Maybe I would just have to 'get over' my hatred, but man would that be hard! There just has to be a different solution!

Hey, I don't like him either, but if he is the guy to take us to the Superbowl, guess who my new favorite person would be?

I guess I am too much of a 'means' instead of 'ends' guy. But having been a Bengals fan for about 30 years, I *might* just justify the means by the end ... maybe. My hatred runs pretty deep ... but the pain of being a Bengals fan does as well. ugh.

[akiliklingler]

I'm not buying it.....yet. I agree that this team is looking at a pretty substantial rebuild after this season, and for the record I support it. But it's ludicrous to assume that this team is four to six years away from being a contender.

IMO if you're on the cusp of being a contender than that means you only have one or two holes to fill. We have many:

1. Coaching - Whether it's Marv, the DC, or the SP coach, there's issues that need to be addressed.

2. Leadership - Carson's a great leader and I guess Willie is, but for whatever reason their words fall on deaf ears.

This is the NFL, Marvin can't change the mindset of the locker room - that has to come from the players

themselves and from what limited info that I'm aware of, I just don't see it.

3. Drafting - Don't necessairly know the reasons - but I sure as h$^l can see the results.

4. Injuries - Year in and year out, the team is injury-prone. When it's every year, the coincidence seems less and less.

5. Linebacker - We don't have any.

6. D-Line - No pressure whatsoever in the backfield. Can't get to the QB and can't stop the run. And not that I care, but

Justin Smith is gone after this year. Your other best guy is filling in at LB.

7. DB's - They whole squad must have been gettign f#*@!d up with JJoe and Deltha and missed the meeting where Marvin

good defenses tackle people. If you need 5 int's to win a game, you're in trouble.

8. O-Line - A lot of money into a line that might not have it's two starting tackles back next year b/c of injury and performance

9. RB's - I think KW's doing great, but he's our 4th string RB. No one can stay healthy.

That's 9 HUGE problems that need to be addressed. Do you actually think that can be taken care of in one draft and one free agent signing?

[damiancasey]

I remember a Star Trek episode where Spock is being cross examined in a court marshal hearing and he’s asked how he can be so certain Kirk didn’t commit a crime when he didn’t even see it happen. Spock explains that people are like objects, they have certain characteristics that are unalterable, “If I drop a hammer on a planet with a positive gravity I need not see it fall to know it has in fact fallen.” He goes on to state.

I would argue that organizations, like many people and objects, also have certain immutable characterizations. One could easily say, “I need not see the Bengals stumble and bumble to know they have in fact stumbled and bumbled.”

Despite the absence of Woody Hayes the Buckeyes, decades after his passing still have a fine running game and a stingy defense. The Lakers, long after Magic and Kareem have departed still run the ball up court and look to “fast break” at every possible moment. The Yankees of 2007 are not much different than the Yankees of 1907 despite the century in between.

Coaches come and go; players come and go but teams for whatever reason, usually remain the same. Are the Steelers of today that much different than when Bradshaw was behind the center and Franco Harris was running the ball and Noll was coaching? Are the Cowboys with Romo so much different than they were with Aikman, or Staubach for that matter?

And if all that’s true than should we as fans really be surprised when the Bengals squander their window of opportunity and watch it close slowly about their necks like a hangman’s noose? Shula…. Coslett…. Lebeau…. Lewis has anything really changed much? Really? Even under the legendary Paul Brown the Bengals made the playoffs what? Twice? Wasn’t it only twice under Gregg and twice or so under Wyche too?

Has Marvin really fallen so far off the tracks here guys? Are things soooo much different now than they were in 1979 or 2003? And are you really shocked? Really? If so maybe you need to look inside yourself and ask why? What in their entire history made you think this administration would be different?, let alone better? Does SoP run things differently than his father did? Will he ever?

In the (now) immortal words of Dennis Greene “They are who thought they were!”

Or at least, they are who you should have known they would be.

Awesome post, Bengals1!!!

I'm going to use that Spock quote as soon as I can!!

By the way - thanks for bringing me down!!

[Bengals1]

By the way - thanks for bringing me down!!

Whatever I can do. We all in this together after all.

[711chad]

turk how do you see us 4-6 years from a contender...if we signed some defensive key free agents and got a nice pick to go along with them this offseason...arent we a contender next year?

[akiliklingler]

turk how do you see us 4-6 years from a contender...if we signed some defensive key free agents and got a nice pick to go along with them this offseason...arent we a contender next year?

A few replys above yours I gave nine reasons why I felt they were years away. I know it might be on the negative side, but I truely believe that all issues I listed are relevant and significant. I think if we had only two or three of those issues (like in '05) we'd be closer, but all of the issues pertain to the Bengals.

[Bengals1]

turk how do you see us 4-6 years from a contender...if we signed some defensive key free agents and got a nice pick to go along with them this offseason...arent we a contender next year?

Let me answer that. (See below)

[Bengals1]

turk how do you see us 4-6 years from a contender...if we signed some defensive key free agents and got a nice pick to go along with them this offseason...arent we a contender next year?

I would argue that organizations, like many people and objects, also have certain immutable characterizations. One could easily say, “I need not see the Bengals stumble and bumble to know they have in fact stumbled and bumbled.”

[HoosierCat]

That's 9 HUGE problems that need to be addressed. Do you actually think that can be taken care of in one draft and one free agent signing?

Tough to say, because a lot of the "answers" are here but surrounded by questions of their own.

Is Stacy the future at RT? Are either C. Perry or Irons going to amount to anything? Who is the real Chris Henry, the new supposedly rededicated, grown-up v2.0 -- or the off-field knucklehead, on-field alligator-arming lack-o-effort guy we saw late last year? Is Ahmad for real? Will we get either Pollack or Thurman back, and if so will they be any good? Are any of these hyped day 2/UDFA types either buried on the roster, PS or IR (Hype Henderson, Big Toe, Non-Dairy Dessert, Marvin White, etc.) going to emerge?

If some of the above is answered positively for the Bengals, then yeah, one offseason might at least get them back into the playoff hunt, tho it's highly unlikely to create an instant Super Bowl contender.