Effect of Cutting Levi postseason

[mgilgris]

Just wondering how cutting Levi after the season would affect the cap space. He is eating a lot of the cap and after last weeks performance is definitely not worth it. I hope the guy picks it back up but what affect in cutting him????

[HoosierCat]

I looked at this in another thread, just to recap:

Assuming the guy who does the cap numbers over at go-bengals is close to the target, cutting or trading Levi isn't a big killer next year.

In terms of salary + amortized bonus he'll probably have a cap hit of about $4.5m. However, the remaining bonus to be accounted for should "only" be about $5.1m. So the net cap hit would be under a million. If they cut him instead of trading him and did the cut as a June 2 cut we'd actually pick up a couple million in cap space.

(In case anyone cares the situation with Willie is even better; again if the go-bengals numbers are right we'd probably pick up about $4m in cap space by giving Willie the boot.)

[kingwilly]

well, slap my ass and call me Sally.

Couple of things:

1. Levi is paid far too much to either sit behind Whit or whoever, or play the way he did vs KC. If he is still hurt and is letting his pride get in the way of reality, then it is the coaches job to manage the player. If his skill degraded from the injury and lack of preparations, then they need to keenly watch how he progresses during the season and decide if he is worth the ching they dished.

2. Willie's injury seemes to me to be the kind that indicates the prgressive breakdown of a player into his 30's...first it is a foot "issue", before it was the knee, next it will be a shoulder or back...Willie is/was a top RT. Is he done? Maybe, though they should still have enough time between now and June 2 for both guys to be fully rehab'd and reviewed before making the decision.

Should June 2 come and both guys get axed, then they HAD BETTER have drafted a legit RT and signed a legit FA LT.

I would so much rather have had Steiny than SMith a this point. Now with the O-line ailments, it is even more obvious where they should ave spent the dough.

[HairOnFire]

Levi is paid far too much to either sit behind Whit or whoever, or play the way he did vs KC. If he is still hurt and is letting his pride get in the way of reality, then it is the coaches job to manage the player. If his skill degraded from the injury and lack of preparations, then they need to keenly watch how he progresses during the season and decide if he is worth the ching they dished.

......

I would so much rather have had Steiny than SMith a this point. Now with the O-line ailments, it is even more obvious where they should ave spent the dough.

I'm not going to make too much out of Levi's poor play against the Chiefs as I think he has been a good LT in the past and probably can be again once his health and technique return. If that transpires he won't sit behind anyone, nor will Whitworth, and the question facing the Bengals will once again be limited to retaining Stacy Andrews.

As for Steinbach, I think its often easier to miss a player if you no longer watch him play. Against the Patriots Steinbach played a role in surrendering three sacks, two resulting in miscommunication between him and the center...allowing a LB to come unblocked, and a third that nearly forced the Browns QB from the game. No kidding, on that play Patriot DT Vince Wilfork blew completely unblocked past Steinbach and crushed the QB. Steinbach, busy pointing somewhere in the Patriot defensive backfield when the ball was snapped, never even attempted to block his man.

[kingwilly]

Levi is paid far too much to either sit behind Whit or whoever, or play the way he did vs KC. If he is still hurt and is letting his pride get in the way of reality, then it is the coaches job to manage the player. If his skill degraded from the injury and lack of preparations, then they need to keenly watch how he progresses during the season and decide if he is worth the ching they dished.

......

I would so much rather have had Steiny than SMith a this point. Now with the O-line ailments, it is even more obvious where they should ave spent the dough.

I'm not going to make too much out of Levi's poor play against the Chiefs as I think he has been a good LT in the past and probably can be again once his health and technique return. If that transpires he won't sit behind anyone, nor will Whitworth, and the question facing the Bengals will once again be limited to retaining Stacy Andrews.

As for Steinbach, I think its often easier to miss a player if you no longer watch him play. Against the Patriots Steinbach played a role in surrendering three sacks, two resulting in miscommunication between him and the center...allowing a LB to come unblocked, and a third that nearly forced the Browns QB from the game. No kidding, on that play Patriot DT Vince Wilfork blew completely unblocked past Steinbach and crushed the QB. Steinbach, busy pointing somewhere in the Patriot defensive backfield when the ball was snapped, never even attempted to block his man.

Comparitively, watching Justin Smith flounder directly into an opposing LT, get pushed around and then run 15 yards downfield just about every play makes me know I would not miss him.

Also, to criticize a guy for blowing a block vs the Pats and Wilfork is like saying a CB is awful because CP and CJ burned them....

I would take Steiny over Smith, from a team, versatility, depth, talent, and potential perspecitve any day of the week.

and please do not give me the "he got CP hurt" line, it was a freak thing and not the fault of a G doing his job.

you do make a good point about Andrews...he has the next several weeks to step his game up...he really needs to show something.

[HoosierCat]

Keeping Justin and letting Steiny walk made sense at the time. It wasn't inarguable, but you could make a solid case that we had a ready replacement in Whit, while at DE, losing Justin left us with nothing but Geathers, an aging B-rob, and a couple guys who couldn't stay heathy in Rucker and Fanene. Unfortunately, events have conspired to turn that case on its head: the pass rush still blows and injuries on the o-line have made Eric's absence more painful than anyone expected.

Really, tho, Smith vs. Steinbach in a bit of a second-order issue. The real issue was the call to re-sign Willie, which pretty much shot down any hopes of keeping Steinbach. Again, you could make a solid case -- Willie was an ironman, would play through anything, was still playing at a high level, and was a team leader. And $5m+ for a guard? But again, however sensible that argument, in real life it tripped and fell on its face.

[HairOnFire]

Also, to criticize a guy for blowing a block vs the Pats and Wilfork is like saying a CB is awful because CP and CJ burned them....

Again, sometimes it's easier to miss someone if you no longer watch them play, and your remarks are proof of that. In all three examples from the Patriot game we're talking about sacks being surrendered as a result of defenders being completely unblocked. So it hardly matter how highly you regard a player like Wilfork if the player tasked with blocking him, Steinbach, doesn't even react to the snap of the ball. Do that and any DT in the NFL will sack your QB.

For whatever it might be worth I've seen every Cleveland Brown game played this season, with the exception of the last one, and I've already seen Steinbach give up multiple sacks in games against the Steelers and Patriots. So for me it isn't a matter of if Steinbach is missed more than Justin Smith would be. It's a matter of if Steinbach was worth what would have been needed to keep him or if Andrew Whitworth could adequately replace him. And there's the rub because IMHO Whitworth is not only cheaper but flat out better.

[HoosierCat]

It's a matter of if Steinbach was worth what would have been needed to keep him or if Andrew Whitworth could adequately replace him. And there's the rub because IMHO Whitworth is not only cheaper but flat out better.

Which was a rock-solid argument right up until...they...gave...the job to Andrews.

Who did OK, and maybe would have grown into the gig...except Willie went down...so the bear danced to RT...and Levi went down, so they put Whit at LT...and...they...gave the LG job to Scott Kooistra.

Yipe.

You're absolutely right that letting Steiny walk could be defended. Unfortunately for us, that particular argument hasn't survived contact with the proverbial enemy.

[HairOnFire]

Keeping Justin and letting Steiny walk made sense at the time. It wasn't inarguable, but you could make a solid case that we had a ready replacement in Whit, while at DE, losing Justin left us with nothing but Geathers, an aging B-rob, and a couple guys who couldn't stay heathy in Rucker and Fanene. Unfortunately, events have conspired to turn that case on its head: the pass rush still blows and injuries on the o-line have made Eric's absence more painful than anyone expected.

Nothing was turned on it's head. Without Smith the Bengals defense would be even worse than it currently is....something that is far more possible than most think. For those who casually say Smith should have been cast off it should be noted that the hated Frostee Rucker was available for backup duty only in the last two games, and still isn't completely healthy, as he's now playing with a broken hand. And the strangely beloved figure that is Jonathan Fanene is busy making Frostee Rucker seem like an Ironman.

[HairOnFire]

You're absolutely right that letting Steiny walk could be defended. Unfortunately for us, that particular argument hasn't survived contact with the proverbial enemy.

No strategy will hold up under the weight of the injuries the Bengals are dealing with. That's why second guessing everything has become as popular as it is pointless.

[HoosierCat]

Without Smith the Bengals defense would be even worse than it currently is....something that is far more possible than most think.

It may be possible, but it's hardly the certain assertion you make in the first part of your sentence. Moreover, the team would have likely used the space not used on Justin or Eric (reportedly about $3 million) to either keep Simmons (which would have helped on the LB front a lot) or more likely to sign some aging vet DE who Im sure could have racked up stats equal to Justins unimpressive total so far.

Things could still change, but let's face it, we both supported the Bengals when they kept Justin and let Steiny go, and right now it looks like we both made the wrong call.

[HoosierCat]

That's why second guessing everything has become as popular as it is pointless.

So we should abandon hindsight? Never hold anyone accountable? Well, that is how things tend to go in Cincy, isn't it? Darn, we just didn't get lucky. But wait 'til next year...

[HairOnFire]

Moreover, the team would have likely used the space not used on Justin or Eric (reportedly about $3 million) to either keep Simmons (which would have helped on the LB front a lot) or more likely to sign some aging vet DE who Im sure could have racked up stats equal to Justins unimpressive total so far.

Two things come immediately to mind. First, I've watched three Saint games this season and haven't caught a glimpse of Brian Simmons yet. Second, the only thing a stat based argument usually guarantees is that you'll miss the point.

[HairOnFire]

That's why second guessing everything has become as popular as it is pointless.

So we should abandon hindsight? Never hold anyone accountable? Well, that is how things tend to go in Cincy, isn't it?

Actually, in Cincy all anyone does is blame the owner for everything and demand he surrender all control.

So how's that working out for you?

[skyline]

That's why second guessing everything has become as popular as it is pointless.

So we should abandon hindsight? Never hold anyone accountable? Well, that is how things tend to go in Cincy, isn't it?

Actually, in Cincy all anyone does is blame the owner for everything and demand he surrender all control.

So how's that working out for you?

I wonder how much pull Mike Brown still has. I remember Marvin publicly mentioning that he didn't approve of some of the draft picks, but was overruled. How many times do you think that has happened, and how much do you think this has to do with recent rumors that he's asking for a GM?

[HoosierCat]

Two things come immediately to mind. First, I've watched three Saint games this season and haven't caught a glimpse of Brian Simmons yet. Second, the only thing a stat based argument usually guarantees is that you'll miss the point.

The issue isn't what Simmons has done in NO, it's what he would have meant here. Any stat comparison would be meaningless since we would be talking about him in NO, where he's a new guy in a new system playing next to guys he doesn't know, versus a vet playing with long-time companions in Cincy. In short, its a pretty good bet that he would be doing OK here...certainly better than Miller or Schlegal.

[HoosierCat]

Actually, in Cincy all anyone does is blame the owner for everything and demand he surrender all control.

Well, since the owner is also the GM, that's to be expected, right? If any non-owner GM had a record like Mikey's over the last 15 or so years, he wouldn't have a job, right? And instances of teams that have an owner and a GM are hardly rare, right? So why should anyone be surprised by calls for Mikey's head -- or at least his GM's title?

[kingwilly]

Two things come immediately to mind. First, I've watched three Saint games this season and haven't caught a glimpse of Brian Simmons yet. Second, the only thing a stat based argument usually guarantees is that you'll miss the point.

The issue isn't what Simmons has done in NO, it's what he would have meant here. Any stat comparison would be meaningless since we would be talking about him in NO, where he's a new guy in a new system playing next to guys he doesn't know, versus a vet playing with long-time companions in Cincy. In short, its a pretty good bet that he would be doing OK here...certainly better than Miller or Schlegal.

We can extend this logic to HoF's current regard for Steiny's mis-cues in Brown-town. What matter is what he would have done here, in this scheme, surrounded by the line he had been a part of. Chemistry is big.

And for HoF to back-defend Smith by stating the D would be worse without him, I'd really have to see that to believe it. Since last year, I have felt and stated Smith is being wasted at DE and should have been moved to MLB, especially considering the weakness of the roster. He is an awful pass rusher and wastes his natural talent (big-motor and nose for the ball) on running around getting tired. If he was anchoring the middle, the D would be better. As a DE, he is just barely average. Not having him at DE, and being replaced by a different average DE would certainly not make the D worse.

As an example of another high-effort guy going to LB, Geathers has done pretty well in space, ranging his use from covering a TE/RB to slamming a gap and forcing a play back to a tackler, and getting in on the pass rush.

[HairOnFire]

Well, since the owner is also the GM, that's to be expected, right? If any non-owner GM had a record like Mikey's over the last 15 or so years, he wouldn't have a job, right?

Most of Mike's critics wouldn't have a job either.

Take yourself as an example. In this very thread you've stated that the decision to let Steinbach go was defendable...especially if you consider Whitworth a worthy replacement. You've also defended the decision to reluctantly tag Justin Smith, a hard choice that you supported when the decision was made. But now that injuries have scuttled the strategy that you and the Bengals agreed upon you casually point fingers and demand accountability.

Very well.

Fire yourself.

[HairOnFire]

The issue isn't what Simmons has done in NO, it's what he would have meant here.

Ahhhhh, the next counterfactual rant in a series of counterfactual rants. Let's call this one the glorious return of the Quiet Storm.

Nevermind the fact that Simmons isn't considered good enough to get playing time on a bad New Orleans defense. No, had he remained an overpaid Bengal he would have remained healthy and no doubt managed to outplay the waiver wire pickup the Bengals had to sign after options one, two, and three were injured.

I've got to admit it's a great plan. (Did that sound sincere?)

[HoosierCat]

Very well.

Fire yourself.

Well, let's see, I already admitted I was wrong about letting Steiny go and keeping Justin...so I did that already. Anything else?

Ahhhhh, the next counterfactual rant in a series of counterfactual rants.

Ahhhh, the standard "rant" tar when you haven't got any better argument.

As kingwilly noted, chemistry is big. In fact, isn't that one of the main arguments used againt signing big-name, big-bucks outside FAs? That they come from different systems and won't fit? Yeah, I think even Marvin made that one earlier this year. So, would Simmons have been better that guys that didn't even get here until after camp and/or the season started? Yeah, I think so.

[HairOnFire]

Very well.

Fire yourself.

Well, let's see, I already admitted I was wrong about letting Steiny go and keeping Justin...so I did that already. Anything else?

That's it? No throwing yourself on your sword? No hari-kari styled act of contrition? Just another admission that you were wrong before moving on to the next example of second guessing?

I don't mean to complain but your job as chief Mikey basher seems to lack accountability.

[HoosierCat]

Just another admission that you were wrong before moving on to the next example of second guessing?

Yup. I was wrong. Fortunately, I'm not the Bengals' GM.

Unfortunately, the real Bengals GM made the same call.

I love how you can hold me accountable for being wrong...but not Mikey.

[HairOnFire]

Ahhhh, the standard "rant" tar when you haven't got any better argument..

What better argument do I need other than pointing out how Simmons wasn't worth what he was being paid, and hasn't been deemed good enough to get significant playing time on TWO very bad defenses. By comparison, you offer a counterfactual argument claiming Simmons should have been kept because he was better than the options available to the Bengals AFTER a half dozen injuries at LB.

Sheesh, even with perfect hindsight that argument sucks.

[HairOnFire]

Yup. I was wrong. Fortunately, I'm not the Bengals' GM.

I give thanks for this every single day. But don't take it personally as I feel the same way about everyone here....including myself.

We're all plinkers, douchebags, and fugtards.