Keiwan Ratliff Cut!!

[jjakq27]

Why is it necessary for the hot heads on here to call other people morons and idiots because they don't agree with their opinion?

I'm betting it's got nothing to do with message boards. In fact, I'm guessing it happens to you everywhere you go in the real world.

Yawn

Yawn? It's become my favorite sitcom-dramedy.

[HairOnFire]

Bottom Line: Injuries matter, and arguing that they impact Marvin Lewis in exactly the same way as they do for all head coaches is a blatant strawman argument of YOUR own making.

It might be, had I ever argued that. In fact, I said quite the opposite: that injuries aren't a consideration for Lewis or any other coach, because it isn't something they have control over.

As is your habit you're now just spinning a strawman argument through a semantic filter.

In the interests of saving time might I suggest your signature should read..."I didn't say that."

[HoosierCat]

But even so, the injury issue is beside the point. Almost certainly, Marvin would be doing better if all the injured guys were healthy and all the suspended guys back. But so would virtually any competent head coach. With such a loaded squad, it's hard to believe that only Marvin Lewis could get the Bengals back to the playoffs.

I said they'd be a far better team under any head coach without all the injuries and suspensions. You can't coach up injuries. You can, however, coach up discipline and technique and knowing your assignments, and all the other things that we regularly see and hear are wrong with the team.

Injuries are a separate issue because marvin cant do anything about them.

[in fact, I said quite the opposite: that injuries aren't a consideration for Lewis or any other coach, because it isn't something they have control over. The injuries a team has, and a coach's skill, are two different issues.

Yup, I've just been saying something different every time.

Apparently, contrary to your assertion a few days back, you can't read.

[HairOnFire]

It's simpler than that. I say injuries matter. You attempt to correct me by saying they matter, but aren't a consideration. And thus you've provided us with yet another demonstration of your patented semantic filter.

The all too familiar...."I didn't say that."

Frankly, it doesn't matter a bit if your rant is consistent....only that it's a fairly worthless point to make from the start and an obvious strawman argument that attempts to negate the impact injuries have had on this team. And please don't bother explaining the very narrow point you're trying to make because I get it. I just don't find any value in it....largely because it's based upon the premise that all teams suffer injuries equally, all injuries have the same impact, and all injuries can be adequately and immediately dealt with by proper planning and quality coaching.

Again, injuries matter. It's precisely why you post an injury report every week and update it whenever needed. It's why you spent countless hours and months worrying about the season before it began. It's why you predicted a very average season after the injuries had begun to pile up. It's a major factor why Marvin Lewis can't play the team he planned to put on the field.

So turn off the semantic filter and tell me again that injuries aren't a valid consideration.

[HoosierCat]

And please don't bother explaining the very narrow point you're trying to make because I get it. I just don't find any value in it....largely because it's based upon the premise that all teams suffer injuries equally, all injuries have the same impact, and all injuries can be adequately and immediately dealt with by proper planning and quality coaching.

Nope, never said, or even thought, any of that. Once again, you create a straw man and knock it down.

I judge coaches by things they can control. They can't control the weather, they can't control the officials...and they can't control injuries. All these are examples of things that can impact the outcome of games, but are, I think we can all agree, things coaches cant be held accountable for.

They can, however, be held accountable for a consistent lack of discipline. They can be held accountable for uninjured players who aren't prepared to play. They can be held accountable for a "Gump" team whose units play like champs one week...and chumps the next. They can be held accountable for a locker room that spins out of control at halftime of a playoff game.

As I said before, injuries don't have anything to do with that.

[chrishcovga]

Well I'll be perfectly honest, I wanted us to grab some of those defensive lineman in the 2nd round of the 2004 draft. Ratliff had a couple of moments, but never lived up to what he did at Florida, which was really all in a season and a half. I guess guys like Tubbs, Odom, and Dockett look pretty good about now huh ??

[HairOnFire]

I judge coaches by things they can control. They can't control the weather, they can't control the officials...and they can't control injuries. All these are examples of things that can impact the outcome of games, but are, I think we can all agree, things coaches cant be held accountable for.

But you are holding Lewis accountable for things he can't control....including injuries.

Or wasn't it you who wrote this...

"I think the poor start this season was certainly a trigger for the criticism, but I'd say what you see now is just the bubbling to the surface of something that's been building since since, oh, about January of 2005 and that Wild Card loss." ---HoosierCat

So in your own words Marvin's troubles began in the Wild Card Playoff loss that was practically defined by Palmer's career threatening knee injury...forcing fumble prone backup Jon Kitna into action.

And Marvin is to blame for his performance, right?

[HairOnFire]

"With The 15th pick in the April 2008 NFL Draft, The Cincinnati Bengals select, Sedrick Ellis Defensive Tackle, University of Southern California."

'Bout time you came around.

[HoosierCat]

But you are holding Lewis accountable for things he can't control....including injuries.

Or wasn't it you who wrote this...

"I think the poor start this season was certainly a trigger for the criticism, but I'd say what you see now is just the bubbling to the surface of something that's been building since since, oh, about January of 2005 and that Wild Card loss." ---HoosierCat

So in your own words Marvin's troubles began in the Wild Card Playoff loss that was practically defined by Palmer's career threatening knee injury...forcing fumble prone backup Jon Kitna into action.

And Marvin is to blame for his performance, right?

Nope. The issue for Lewis in the Wild Card loss, as I said in the post you didn't bother to quote, is:

They can be held accountable for a locker room that spins out of control at halftime of a playoff game.

[HairOnFire]

Nope. The issue for Lewis in the Wild Card loss, as I said in the post you didn't bother to quote, is:

They can be held accountable for a locker room that spins out of control at halftime of a playoff game.

Rumored to have spun out of control, and only then due to the impact of Palmer's injury. As for the loss itself, you seem to be implying that the Bengals lost the game in the locker room. I say they lost it when Kitna fumbled for no reason, couldn't throw deep, or even once manage to beat the same double coverages that Palmer had carved up in the previous game. And all of those things were heavily impacted by Palmer's injury.

So tell me again how you're not basing your criticism of Lewis on the impact of injuries he has no control over.

[HoosierCat]

Rumored to have spun out of control,

Rumored? IIRC you seemed pretty sure of the "rumor," right down to your conviction that Kitna was "the snitch." Now its a rumor? OK.

and only then due to the impact of Palmer's injury.

Again IIRC the main guys involved were Hue Jackson and Chad...neither of whom was injured...and one of whom (not Hue) had a great rapor with Kit. In fact, I seem to recall someone (I can't imagine who) saying the smartest thing Kitna ever did was to hook his star to a wagon named Chad Johnson.

[HairOnFire]

Rumored to have spun out of control,

Rumored? IIRC you seemed pretty sure of the "rumor," right down to your conviction that Kitna was "the snitch." Now its a rumor? OK.

Well, to my credit Lapham has since confirmed what I had claimed. Kitna was the snitch. Huge props to me, right?

But what hasn't been confirmed by anyone, and has openly been mocked by most who were there, is what actually happened. Rumors of thrown punches, headlocks, and barely contained mayhem are still just that and I'm reminded that the source of those rumors was PFT, a site few beyond yourself find entirely credible.

But what the heck, when there's absolutely no evidence why not assume the worst, right? That's what a Moe would do, ehh? So why not use a PFT rumor as a reason to criticize Marvin?

[HairOnFire]

Again IIRC the main guys involved were Hue Jackson and Chad...neither of whom was injured...and one of whom (not Hue) had a great rapor with Kit.

Chad and Hue both denied a physical scuffle took place, which for some of us explains very well how neither were injured.

As for Chad having a great rapport with Kitna.... the entire premise of the rumor was based upon Chad being overly distraught after Palmer's injury AND his lack of faith in Kitna's ability.

So if there are no physical signs of a fight and you don't buy the premise of what started it how can you still cling to the rumor?

[HoosierCat]

But what the heck, when there's absolutely no evidence why not assume the worst, right? That's what a Moe would do, ehh? So why not use a PFT rumor as a reason to criticize Marvin?

Well, were you right or was it a PFT rumor? I guess both, huh:

Well, to my credit Lapham has since confirmed what I had claimed. Kitna was the snitch. Huge props to me, right?

Right.

But what hasn't been confirmed by anyone, and has openly been mocked by most who were there, is what actually happened.

What actually happened? Who cares? Something happened, right? And that was when the first talk of Marvin losing control of the locker room (which was the point of the quote you excerpted without context) started, right? It didn't just pop up now out of the blue, right?

[HairOnFire]

What actually happened? Who cares? Something happened, right? And that was when the first talk of Marvin losing control of the locker room (which was the point of the quote you excerpted without context) started, right? It didn't just pop up now out of the blue, right?

So you don't have the first clue about what actually happened, but the people who were actually involved couldn't be telling the truth or there wouldn't be a rumor. That about it?

As for context, I quoted you because you were criticizing Marvin for things that happened due to an injury...which you've said over and over again are things he can't control. Obviously, you'd like to have things both ways.

You've since argued that it's unfair that I point out your double talk, apparently because your original remarks were offered only in the context of criticizing Lewis for losing control of the locker room and his team. But not only are you basing that fresh form of criticism on a PFT rumor that everyone involved claimed was either entirelly untrue or grossly overstated....you're also ignoring the fact that none of the "rumored" events would have been possible if Palmer hadn't been injured.

Best of all, since you've been busy quoting yourself again and again you can't defend your own strawman arguments by claiming...."I didn't say that."

It's all you.....and PFT.

[HairOnFire]

Well, were you right or was it a PFT rumor? I guess both, huh:

Well, to my credit Lapham has since confirmed what I had claimed. Kitna was the snitch. Huge props to me, right?

Right.

Be nice.

I took plenty of crap for suggesting that the righteous Jon Kitna was the snitch, but that's the direction I felt everything was pointing towards from the very start. And I took another portion of crap when I said any remaining shred of doubt was removed when the Bengals announced in rapid order that they had actually reduced their contract offer for Kitna, an act that puzzled plenty of Bengal fans, followed shortly by news that the rat had been identified and wouldn't be back the following season. Now fast forward to last year when Dave Lapham said that enough time had passed and named Kitna as the original source of the rumor.

So yeah, I got it right.

And you didn't.

Kinda predictable when you think about it, ehh?

[HoosierCat]

What actually happened? Who cares? Something happened, right? And that was when the first talk of Marvin losing control of the locker room (which was the point of the quote you excerpted without context) started, right? It didn't just pop up now out of the blue, right?

So you don't have the first clue about what actually happened

The specifics aren't important, only the fact that discipline broke down. Spin all you want, but you can't dance away from the facts. After years of being told to do their jobs, keep shoveling, and finish, uninjured players keep not doing their jobs, not shoveling, and not finishing. The Bengals remain inconsistent and undisciplined. And yeah, that's coaching.

you're also ignoring the fact that none of the "rumored" events would have been possible if Palmer hadn't been injured.

Again, the breakdown and the injury are still two events. Other teams have crucial injuries, too...but don't get in locker room fights about them, right? Marvin can't control Carson getting hurt -- but he is supposed to have control of the locker room so that it doesn't break down when bad things happen.

[Jonboat]

 </P> 

Maybe Marv shouldn't draft criminal morons and RB's in the 1st and 2nd rounds every year, and over-pay washed up guys like Willie Anderson, Justin Smith Bryan Robinson, Dexter Jackson and Reggie Kelly, and leave no room to add younger, cheaper, better or similarly productive players.
</P> 

Well they have added younger,cheaper,better or similar productive players:

1. Willie- Whitworth, Andrews, Keift + don't forget one of the most pressing needs was finding a center for Braham last year.
   
2. Justin- pollack, rucker,aj . Justin has been one of the biggest disappointments so far this year but if he was playing like he typically has in the past that position would be ok maybe not great but better than we've seen this year for sure . I would've liked to see them get Briggs
   
3. BRob-they did pick up myers who looks solid, peko & fanene with Geathers & Jeanty possibly even could've rushed Brooks off the end if Odell was here.
   
4. Dexter- they did draft marvin white , Ndukwe also finding a corner was a need also it would also be nice to see Ethan some time this year.
   
5. Kelly- Coats looks good to me , Kelly is an excellent blocker & I think an under rated pass catcher we just don't throw to the TE much for whatever reason.
   

[The PatternMaster]

What actually happened? Who cares? Something happened, right? And that was when the first talk of Marvin losing control of the locker room (which was the point of the quote you excerpted without context) started, right? It didn't just pop up now out of the blue, right?

So you don't have the first clue about what actually happened

The specifics aren't important, only the fact that discipline broke down. Spin all you want, but you can't dance away from the facts. After years of being told to do their jobs, keep shoveling, and finish, uninjured players keep not doing their jobs, not shoveling, and not finishing. The Bengals remain inconsistent and undisciplined. And yeah, that's coaching.

you're also ignoring the fact that none of the "rumored" events would have been possible if Palmer hadn't been injured.

Again, the breakdown and the injury are still two events. Other teams have crucial injuries, too...but don't get in locker room fights about them, right? Marvin can't control Carson getting hurt -- but he is supposed to have control of the locker room so that it doesn't break down when bad things happen.

did you not watch the playoff in 2005. did you not see Kitna come out in the 3rd quarter and total blow the game by fumbling the ball and throwing int's. why are u trying to blame the lose on something that didn't happen on the field of play?

So your telling me that during the halftime the players were so emotionally shell-shocked by Chad's reaction that they couldn't focus on the game because they were emotionally scarred by the bad man Chad Johnson. That's just a weak excuse made up by a player, Kitna, who ALWAYS chokes in the big games a way to cover his ass. Kitna is the reason why we lost that game, he played like it was 2002 again.

[BengalByTheBay]

Again, the breakdown and the injury are still two events. Other teams have crucial injuries, too...but don't get in locker room fights about them, right? Marvin can't control Carson getting hurt -- but he is supposed to have control of the locker room so that it doesn't break down when bad things happen.

I don't really want in on the slapfight, but this caught my eye because it so reeked of Squeeler-talk. Yes, other teams do suffer injuries. But you have to look at who was injured and when. It is equally true that other teams suffer critical injuries and then lose that game. So, Moe, it's not just the Bengals. I personally don't buy into the "Marvin has lost the team" cry at this point. I don't hear a lot of guys going to the media, which is what I would expect if that was true. And please don't go to the Levi thing -- that certainly doesn't look like anything other than Levi being pissed about Levi's issues. If anything, Levi has isolated himself from the team by his comments, not identified a "locker room" problem that affects anybody other than, possibly, him.

[HairOnFire]

The specifics aren't important, only the fact that discipline broke down. Spin all you want, but you can't dance away from the facts.

I'd say someone arguing that the specifics aren't important is the one attempting to dance away from the facts. In fact, you're not dancing away from the facts. You're running away from them as fast as your words will take you.

Let's recap.

I'm the guy claiming that the facts are all important. You're the guy whose criticism is entirely built upon rumor.

I'm the guy claiming that what actually happened, and who was directly involved is vital. You're the guy claiming that none of that is important.

I'm the guy who correctly determined who the locker room snitch was. You're the guy mocking me for being right.

I'm the guy posting quotes you've written about how a coach can't be held responsible for results determined by injuries. You're the guy ignoring your own words.

My advice? If I were you I'd stop spinning before your posts get even more dizzy.

[Spor_tees]

Again, the breakdown and the injury are still two events. Other teams have crucial injuries, too...but don't get in locker room fights about them, right? Marvin can't control Carson getting hurt -- but he is supposed to have control of the locker room so that it doesn't break down when bad things happen.

I don't really want in on the slapfight, but this caught my eye because it so reeked of Squeeler-talk. Yes, other teams do suffer injuries. But you have to look at who was injured and when. It is equally true that other teams suffer critical injuries and then lose that game. So, Moe, it's not just the Bengals. I personally don't buy into the "Marvin has lost the team" cry at this point. I don't hear a lot of guys going to the media, which is what I would expect if that was true. And please don't go to the Levi thing -- that certainly doesn't look like anything other than Levi being pissed about Levi's issues. If anything, Levi has isolated himself from the team by his comments, not identified a "locker room" problem that affects anybody other than, possibly, him.

The Levi thing is not entirely true. Someone on here posted an article where Kelly Washington was interviewed and he detailed how the lockerroom was a mess. So no, it isn't just Levi separating himself from the rest of the team.

[HairOnFire]

Again, the breakdown and the injury are still two events. Other teams have crucial injuries, too...but don't get in locker room fights about them, right? Marvin can't control Carson getting hurt -- but he is supposed to have control of the locker room so that it doesn't break down when bad things happen.

No, they aren't two seperate events because the reaction, whatever it might have been, can't take place without the injury happening. In addition, it's ridiculous to think that the impact from any injury doesn't include emotion, especially THAT injury happening under THOSE circumstances. And finally, you have no idea whatsoever what happened in the Bengal locker room at halftime yet you continue to cling to a discredited rumor about punches being thrown, shoving, and restraining headlocks even after a series of players and coaches stepped forward to openly mock and dispute those claims.

[damiancasey]

Who gives a hoot what happened in the locker room. It was a long time ago. Right now we are sucking wind and need to do something about it...

[HairOnFire]

So your telling me that during the halftime the players were so emotionally shell-shocked by Chad's reaction that they couldn't focus on the game because they were emotionally scarred by the bad man Chad Johnson. That's just a weak excuse made up by a player, Kitna, who ALWAYS chokes in the big games a way to cover his ass. Kitna is the reason why we lost that game, he played like it was 2002 again.

Exactly. One of the first questions I asked after the rumor broke was which player in the locker room gained from the distraction. Kitna was the obvious choice, if not the only one. I then asked which players were likely to have a relationship with Boomer Esiason, the original media source that broke the rumor. Again, based largely on their backgrounds as Bengal QB's and their long history of interviews Kitna became the most likely source. And finally, which player was most likely stung by any lack of faith shown in the player forced into action by Palmer's injury? Kitna again.

Quite frankly, determining who the rat had been wasn't all that difficult, especially after the Bengals reacted to the rumor by reducing their contract offer to Kitna. And that action was telling because it shows how upset the Bengals were with a player who not only broke locker room code, but in all probability grossly overstated whatever happened.

Finally, consider the Bengals response to Kitna's actions (Contract offer reduced/No further talks) and Chad Johnson, the player said to be the central figure in what they describe as nothing more than a shouting match. (Bengals publically support Chad/Take zero action)