The Hits Just Keep on Coming

[HairOnFire]

He [Ghiacuic] didn't "earn" the position because he truly did not have any real competition, and still doesn't. We'll see how he fares.

It's not that I hope these guys don't succeed, I'm just not going to wear rosey glasses when I saw how poorly that o-line performed last year, and how little they improved this off-season (literally doing nothing to upgrade any position there).

And if they didn't upgrade any O-Line positions what should that tell you? Or are you assuming that you're the only person who considers protecting Carson Palmer a priority?

Quite frankly, your claim that the Bengals offensive line is mediocre and uproven is laughable, and your demands that the Bengals start infusing some youth into the unit conveniently ignores the fact that two of the five starting positions are now manned by very young players....including one who made several All-Rookie teams. And let's not forget that the most critical O-line position is manned by a very good LT who is still young, Levi Jones. In addition, most of the key backup roles are filled with young players instead of the past habit of plugging in cast-off aging veterans acquired from other teams.

Last, none of us are wearing rose-colored glasses.....unless it's you. Most of us admit freely that the performance of the O-line last season was poorer than expected. Then again, you're the only one here who keeps insisting that merely acknowledging the impact of injuries to the O-line last season is an empty excuse. So which of us is being unrealistic? Which of us is offering lazy convenient analysis? Which of us is arguing that the Bengals O-line is both too young, and thus unproven, as well as too old and needing immediate upgrades?

[bengal4life]

I agree that, due to injuries, our o-line was horible last year. I also saw a huge difference when it came down to the last 6 or so games as far as protection goes. That tells me that Guichec is starting to get his position and to start to figure out defenses.

I might be a little young Shula, but I have never heard of a center getting praised by the media the first year they start for their teams. I'm not trying to clown on you but at the same time I'm supprised Shula Steakhouse is still open considering how much negativity you bring to the table. How are you supposed to sell a steak when you don't even think it tastes satisfying?

I read an article on .com, just like most of us have, regarding the o-line and how dissapointed they were with each others play last season. It seems to me (unprovingly) that they are taking measures to change that. Whitworth, a 340 pounder, only has 11% body fat and the same with Andrews. So to say they are just giving up is just ludicris. I know nobody said those words exactly but it's so to speak.

[kingwilly]

All of this banter goes back to three top-line issues.

1. Bengals Player Development Philosophy

2. Bengals Player Compensation Philosophy

3. Bengals Offensive Philosophy

For no. 1, I feel the staff works under the notion that there is a window of time/performance at each position. If we can agree that a top NFL lineman has window of about 7 years where they will play at a high level, we can also see that where they were drafted plays a big factor in the value side of the equation.

Take a guy like Levi: 1st rounder, big payday. Now with a big extension. Once a starter, has played at a very high level but now starting to be slowed by injury. 6th year.

Now consider Willie: 1st rounder, big pay, big extension(s). Became a starter right away, has consecutive games streak but has been injured quite a bit, thus playing hurt albeit at a high-level. 12th year.

I see similarities with each, and with how the Bengals have handled each guy. Can Levi make it to 10, 12 seasons playing at a similar high level? Maybe, but clearly the Bengals are willing to take the chance, as they've had good success taking this approach with Willie.

Clearly they ave put a premium on taking a T in the 1st round and working to develop that talent into a long-term relationship. In the case of Steinbach, I think they do not factor a 2nd round G with the same development plan, despite how versatile or talented that G is.

For no. 2, I think this is where the Bengals F up. Where a guy is drafted still seems more important than how the player has performed. I can only think of TJ as an example of a late drafted player who has broken from this philosophy. Perhaps Jeremi Johnson is another one, but his value as te highest paid FB in the NFL is still a question for me.

I see the Bengals compensation philosophy as the thin holding back the long-term development of a guy like Steinbach. Sure, it is a shell game and there is not an infinite amount of money but as Shula points out, protecting Palmer should be the No. 1 priority when they go through these exercises in value/talent development.

I see guys like Andrews, Ghiucuc, Keift, Koostra as just the cheapies to fill the holes until the next Levi or Willie is an option in the draft. Whitworth will find himself in the same spot as Steinbach: not drafted high enough to be embraced by the Bengals for a big $ extension but good enough to satisfy the need for a high-skilled G/T for another team with $ and need (just hopefully not an AFC North team!).

I think we'll see a key guy get hurt and someone step up. I think this line can be one of the best 3 in the NFL if healthy. If we end up with Andrews and Whitworth on the left side, it might get a little touchy unless the scheme/playcalling is adjusted.

For no. 3, I think we have a real weakness. The weakness is in Brat's schemes, as it relates to the players on the field and the opposing defense. He rarely will modify for the opposing D. He modifies for clock management and based on score but I see no adjustment for what the D comes with. One could argue that this is due to the sheer ability of the O but I'd like to see him take advantage of obvious weaknesses despite who needs to get "touches" or score.

Now, as it relates to the O line, I think should it be such that a Whitworth/Andrews left side happens for some reason, Brat will be in a tight spot. Unsure of how well those guys can give Carson time for a whole game in the AFC North, I would hope they give the D a steady diet of Rudi and Irons of left tackle or wide, with Andrews pulling. That would be a sight and has no risk to Carson. Brat needs to consider this should the scenario happen. Will he let his ego do that? I hope. Will Chad and TJ be able to deal with that? I hope.

[Jet23]

Every NFL team experiences injuries. You just don't hear about them, because the injuries do not result in the qb getting killed. Here's an idea. Make a freaking adjustment! Paul Alexander is simply horrible. Until someone can name me one single late round / FA success story, I'm pretty much going with that.

How can a team with a decade of futility and high draft selections continue to wait for a playoff victory you ask? Because they continuously burn high draft picks on a mediocre offensive line.

[kingwilly]

How can a team with a decade of futility and high draft selections continue to wait for a playoff victory you ask? Because they continuously burn high draft picks on a mediocre offensive line.

I'd contend the line is more than above mediocre.

and which high draft picks do you speak of? do you mean low drat picks?

Since 02 we've taken Levi, Steiny and Whitworth on day 1.

Levi, when healthy is as good a could have been hoped for.

Steiny was excellent but a victim of the Bengals poor value/position philosophy

and Whitworth is a second year player..as in "in development" and playing behind LEvi and Willie...a luxury of sorts for the team to have such a situation.

[Kazkal]

I share your concern about Levi knees but come on... Mike Brown didn't want to pay a guard starting TACKLE money

What kind of $ difference are we talking here between starting tackles and guards anyway? It couldn't be that substantial, could it? The guys line up right next to each other on the line for crissakes!

Tackles are payed to protect your QB,Steinbach didn't do a very good job with that getting carsons leg taken out twice now did he? so why would we wanna pay him 50million to let carson get hurt?

[Kazkal]

6-8 months of rest and rehab for what have been presented as minor injuries, and are still sidelined, I have to think another few weeks isn't

Well Willie is a 12 year linemen vet they seem to get camp off

[oldschooler]

You don't lose to teams like freakin' Tampa Bay last year because you have a "top 3" o-line in a relatively low scoring game. It's because you can't control the clock and score enough points, aside from a bad defense that leads to a .500 record.

The Bucs game, Levi was knocked out of that game, Henry was suspended, Ahmad Brooks

and Caleb Miller were STARTING at LB, Kase was STARTING at Safety, Steinbach was STARTING

at Center, Whitworth was STARTING AT LG. And the O-line had to be reshuffled when Levi went down.

Stacy Andrews played G/OT, Steinbach played C/LG, Whitworth played LG/LT Busing, Kilmer,

and Indy Jones ALL played significant time in that game. Plus the game was on the ROAD.

So much for that "top 3 o-line" even playing in that game.

Anyway, that along with one of the most horrible calls that I have ever seen (Justin`s sack and forced fumble)

are the reasons the Bengals lost to the Bucs.

.500 records are not impressive to me here anymore. i'm sorry some of you feel differently apparently.

Why is it that when I see someone that constantly moans and criticizes the Bengals

they ALWAYS use this line ?

[oldschooler]

Every NFL team experiences injuries. You just don't hear about them, because the injuries do not result in the qb getting killed. Here's an idea. Make a freaking adjustment! Paul Alexander is simply horrible. Until someone can name me one single late round / FA success story, I'm pretty much going with that.

How can a team with a decade of futility and high draft selections continue to wait for a playoff victory you ask? Because they continuously burn high draft picks on a mediocre offensive line.

BWAAAhahahahahahahahaha !

Pleas tell me you didn`t type this drivel with a straight face !

You guys kill me. You talk about Paul Alexander not having late round picks

starting on the o-line, then in the same breath say the Bengals are

using high round picks on the o-line.

Using that logic, Ken Zampeze sucks ass. He hasn`t developed any starting QB

other than the #1 overall pick . . .

[HairOnFire]

I guess we can continue wasting keystrokes debating this topic, but IMHO the truth has already been stated as perfectly as possible.

Steakhouse = Tibor

[bengalsfansince68]

Some of you guys take differing opinions as if someone attacked your mom.

I don't think we have any problem with differing opinions.

It's the constant non-stop bitching that I find irritating.

I have to wonder if you are secretly a woman on PMS.

Anyone know the difference between a terrorist and a woman on PMS?

The terrorist makes less demands.

[Jet23]

Every NFL team experiences injuries. You just don't hear about them, because the injuries do not result in the qb getting killed. Here's an idea. Make a freaking adjustment! Paul Alexander is simply horrible. Until someone can name me one single late round / FA success story, I'm pretty much going with that.

How can a team with a decade of futility and high draft selections continue to wait for a playoff victory you ask? Because they continuously burn high draft picks on a mediocre offensive line.

BWAAAhahahahahahahahaha !

Pleas tell me you didn`t type this drivel with a straight face !

You guys kill me. You talk about Paul Alexander not having late round picks

starting on the o-line, then in the same breath say the Bengals are

using high round picks on the o-line.

Using that logic, Ken Zampeze sucks ass. He hasn`t developed any starting QB

other than the #1 overall pick . . .

That means he hasn't developed anyone Mr. Wizard. Sorry, I'm typing as slowly as I can. He doesn't have late round picks starting, because he can't recognize or develop talent outside of the 3rd round.

Same ole Pleasantville, everything is juuuuuust peachy!

[The PatternMaster]

Every NFL team experiences injuries. You just don't hear about them, because the injuries do not result in the qb getting killed. Here's an idea. Make a freaking adjustment! Paul Alexander is simply horrible. Until someone can name me one single late round / FA success story, I'm pretty much going with that.

How can a team with a decade of futility and high draft selections continue to wait for a playoff victory you ask? Because they continuously burn high draft picks on a mediocre offensive line.

BWAAAhahahahahahahahaha !

Pleas tell me you didn`t type this drivel with a straight face !

You guys kill me. You talk about Paul Alexander not having late round picks

starting on the o-line, then in the same breath say the Bengals are

using high round picks on the o-line.

Using that logic, Ken Zampeze sucks ass. He hasn`t developed any starting QB

other than the #1 overall pick . . .

That means he hasn't developed anyone Mr. Wizard. Sorry, I'm typing as slowly as I can. He doesn't have late round picks starting, because he can't recognize or develop talent outside of the 3rd round.

Same ole Pleasantville, everything is juuuuuust peachy!

Isn't Ghicuic a 4th round pick, same goes for Stacey. If those guys play like everyone has been saying they've been playing then I think you would owe Alexander an apology.

[oldschooler]

Every NFL team experiences injuries. You just don't hear about them, because the injuries do not result in the qb getting killed. Here's an idea. Make a freaking adjustment! Paul Alexander is simply horrible. Until someone can name me one single late round / FA success story, I'm pretty much going with that.

How can a team with a decade of futility and high draft selections continue to wait for a playoff victory you ask? Because they continuously burn high draft picks on a mediocre offensive line.

BWAAAhahahahahahahahaha !

Pleas tell me you didn`t type this drivel with a straight face !

You guys kill me. You talk about Paul Alexander not having late round picks

starting on the o-line, then in the same breath say the Bengals are

using high round picks on the o-line.

Using that logic, Ken Zampeze sucks ass. He hasn`t developed any starting QB

other than the #1 overall pick . . .

That means he hasn't developed anyone Mr. Wizard. Sorry, I'm typing as slowly as I can. He doesn't have late round picks starting, because he can't recognize or develop talent outside of the 3rd round.

You can type as fast as you feel the need to type.

It won`t make your words make you look like less of a moron.

He doesn`t have a whole line of late round picks starting because Levi, Willie, Bobbie Williams

and Whitworth were all high round picks. Eric Ghuiciac is a late round pick, but I guess

he doesn`t count.

Since the year 2000, the Bengals have drafted 7 O-linemen.

Some of those were even "late round picks". Of those 7

O-linemen, all but 1 is still on the Bengals roster.

The one that isn`t on the Bengals roster, got a truckload

of money to go play for the Clowns.

Oh and in case you hadn`t noticed, the Bengals

Offense has been the strength of the team.

Man that Paul Alexander sucks.

Do I really need to post a smiley to show my sarcasm ?

Same ole Pleasantville, everything is juuuuuust peachy!

Same ole Emokidburgh, everything sucks and life just ain`t worth living !

[Jet23]

Every NFL team experiences injuries. You just don't hear about them, because the injuries do not result in the qb getting killed. Here's an idea. Make a freaking adjustment! Paul Alexander is simply horrible. Until someone can name me one single late round / FA success story, I'm pretty much going with that.

How can a team with a decade of futility and high draft selections continue to wait for a playoff victory you ask? Because they continuously burn high draft picks on a mediocre offensive line.

BWAAAhahahahahahahahaha !

Pleas tell me you didn`t type this drivel with a straight face !

You guys kill me. You talk about Paul Alexander not having late round picks

starting on the o-line, then in the same breath say the Bengals are

using high round picks on the o-line.

Using that logic, Ken Zampeze sucks ass. He hasn`t developed any starting QB

other than the #1 overall pick . . .

That means he hasn't developed anyone Mr. Wizard. Sorry, I'm typing as slowly as I can. He doesn't have late round picks starting, because he can't recognize or develop talent outside of the 3rd round.

You can type as fast as you feel the need to type.

It won`t make your words make you look like less of a moron.

He doesn`t have a whole line of late round picks starting because Levi, Willie, Bobbie Williams

and Whitworth were all high round picks. Eric Ghuiciac is a late round pick, but I guess

he doesn`t count.

Since the year 2000, the Bengals have drafted 7 O-linemen.

Some of those were even "late round picks". Of those 7

O-linemen, all but 1 is still on the Bengals roster.

The one that isn`t on the Bengals roster, got a truckload

of money to go play for the Clowns.

Oh and in case you hadn`t noticed, the Bengals

Offense has been the strength of the team.

Man that Paul Alexander sucks.

Do I really need to post a smiley to show my sarcasm ?

Same ole Pleasantville, everything is juuuuuust peachy!

Same ole Emokidburgh, everything sucks and life just ain`t worth living !

Really dude, you can not be this stupid. I take that back, I think you really are. The OL is important and spending high picks, in certain positions, is necessary. But NOBODY has to burn a high pick, or sign a proven FA developed by somebody else, on every OL starting postion. O.K., so we have a couple of 4th rounders that MAY pan out. Still waiting on one success story. 14 years AND NOT ONE! Yes, we have a good offense thanks to the skill positions. The OL is mediocre at best when absolutely healthy, which rarely happens in the NFL.

[GapControl]

hey jet23 and shula... tell me the best starting offensive lines in football last year and name their draft pick positions. just give me the top 4 in the league. TGCGT and indicate any free agent acquistions.

I want to compare it to the Bengals. thanks.

[Jet23]

hey jet23 and shula... tell me the best starting offensive lines in football last year and name their draft pick positions. just give me the top 4 in the league. TGCGT and indicate any free agent acquistions.

I want to compare it to the Bengals. thanks.

Let's just take the Denver Broncos. You would have to say they have the best OL over the past 10-years, would you not agree?

Starting OL

LT - Matt Lepsis - Undrafted FA

LG - Ben Hamilton - 4th Round

C - Tom Nalen - 7th round

RT - Adam Meadows - FA (2nd Round)

RG - Montrae Holland - FA (4th round)

So, it's hard to argue that the Broncos know a little something about building lines. They burned all of a 4th and 7th rounder to build their starting line. Their key backups are two more undrafted free agents, a free agent, a third rounder and a sixth rounder.

Compare that to the inferior Bengal line, which is comprised of two high first rounders, a second rounder, a free agent and an unproven 4th rounder. Not to mention the fact that they just let a 2nd rounder, who was projected as a #1, walk.

It sure would have been nice to use some of those high picks on defense, huh?

[DesperateDerelict]

[Let's just take the Denver Broncos. You would have to say they have the best OL over the past 10-years, would you not agree?

Sorry, but not a fair comparison - Denver utilizes smaller & quicker linemen, and teaches the despicable "cut blocking" techniques that have destroyed defensive knees for years. The ONLY 'classic' OL drafted by the Donkeys would be 1st Rounder George Foster - a bust in Denver (though I believe he has caught on elsewhere).

San Diego, Philadelphia, New England, and New Orleans are widely considered to have the better Offensive Lines in the game today - both pass blocking & run blocking.

[Jet23]

[Let's just take the Denver Broncos. You would have to say they have the best OL over the past 10-years, would you not agree?

Sorry, but not a fair comparison - Denver utilizes smaller & quicker linemen, and teaches the despicable "cut blocking" techniques that have destroyed defensive knees for years. The ONLY 'classic' OL drafted by the Donkeys would be 1st Rounder George Foster - a bust in Denver (though I believe he has caught on elsewhere).

San Diego, Philadelphia, New England, and New Orleans are widely considered to have the better Offensive Lines in the game today - both pass blocking & run blocking.

And what do the 4 above mentioned teams have in common? They all have at least 1 undrafted free agent starting on their line.

Eagles - 1 undrafted, 2 first rounders, 2 fourth rounders

Chargers - 1 undrafted, 1 2nd rounder, 1 third rounder, 1 7th rounder, 1 Free Agent

New England - 1 undrafted, 1 first rounder(32nd pick), 1 second rounder, 1 third rounder, 1 fifth rounder

New Orleans - 1 undrafted, 2 first rounders, 1 second rounder, 1 fourth rounder

Again

Bengals - 2 first rounders (both top 10 picks), 1 second rounder, 1 FA (2nd round), 1 unproven 4th rounder.

This is not just this year. Alexander has NEVER DEVELOPED ANYONE!

[kingwilly]

[Let's just take the Denver Broncos. You would have to say they have the best OL over the past 10-years, would you not agree?

Sorry, but not a fair comparison - Denver utilizes smaller & quicker linemen, and teaches the despicable "cut blocking" techniques that have destroyed defensive knees for years. The ONLY 'classic' OL drafted by the Donkeys would be 1st Rounder George Foster - a bust in Denver (though I believe he has caught on elsewhere).

San Diego, Philadelphia, New England, and New Orleans are widely considered to have the better Offensive Lines in the game today - both pass blocking & run blocking.

I'd go as far to say that STL, INDY and GB have had O-lines that are as good as any over the past 10 years (bad season records not withstanding). might throw KC in there as well.

To the point about Paul Alexander, I'm not sure what big dfference it makes if he can turn a 4th-7th rounder into an All-Pro. What seems like the biggest think is how well can get 5 guys, of widely varying skill and talent levels, to play cohesive football and have the interchangeability to still excel when a player goes down with injury. If we use that as criteria, I'd say Paul Alexander is a genius!

[redsbengalsbucks]

[Let's just take the Denver Broncos. You would have to say they have the best OL over the past 10-years, would you not agree?

Sorry, but not a fair comparison - Denver utilizes smaller & quicker linemen, and teaches the despicable "cut blocking" techniques that have destroyed defensive knees for years. The ONLY 'classic' OL drafted by the Donkeys would be 1st Rounder George Foster - a bust in Denver (though I believe he has caught on elsewhere).

San Diego, Philadelphia, New England, and New Orleans are widely considered to have the better Offensive Lines in the game today - both pass blocking & run blocking.

I'd go as far to say that STL, INDY and GB have had O-lines that are as good as any over the past 10 years (bad season records not withstanding). might throw KC in there as well.

To the point about Paul Alexander, I'm not sure what big dfference it makes if he can turn a 4th-7th rounder into an All-Pro. What seems like the biggest think is how well can get 5 guys, of widely varying skill and talent levels, to play cohesive football and have the interchangeability to still excel when a player goes down with injury. If we use that as criteria, I'd say Paul Alexander is a genius!

Still the King, you tell'em!!

Finally someone brings some rational thought to this debate. It does not matter when the player was drafted as long as they play well. I dont see how anyone can call the Bengals line lacking much when healthy, I am concerned about the C position. Even that was filled at the start of last season by one of the best in the league. Willie and Levi are the premier T duo in the league, Bobbie Williams is above average and Whitworth and Andrews both show great potential to fill the other Guard position and fill in as backups at all the other G/T spots.