Kazkal Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 If yall recall his rookie year hold out,Which Rookies besides Carson (signed before the draft) & Jonathan Joseph( like 1 player diden't sign before training camp in 2006) diden't hold out?don't understand keeping the excact same defense after a piss poor yearYet you wanna let go one of the few relieable players we have?most agree he's not worth top 5 DE money...but really he's the best option we have at the potion.How do you expect us to fix it if he walks? Brob and Geathers starters? lolOr mybe Geathers and Rucker ? "laughs"Okay which FA would be a improvement over him? thomas freeney? not likely to hit the market nor would we spend dollars on a outsider.everyone is saying FA's wont work. I think they will workDoesn't really matter what you think (not being an asshat when I say this) But it's not the bengal way we don't bring in big name big price FA's it's not the way we do it...Our biggest FA signing ever was a player who begged and begged to play for us...I like sam but he's not a top tier FA.I'm all for upgrading over justin it just seems unlikely we'd do that,so why not upgrade another postion instead?Can you name a player on our defense who's been more relieable then justin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurmanation Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Yet you wanna let go one of the few relieable players we have?most agree he's not worth top 5 DE money...but really he's the best option we have at the potion.This is the only problem i have with him, he should never recieve this kind of money..EVER! unless this man is averaging 15 sacks a year and picking off passes and running them back for TD's, Then ill be willing to shell out top 5 DE money..oh well look at it this way, it seems in madden the higher paid the athlete the better his overall for some reason lol next years madden challange ill have abeter D-line Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schweinhart Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Some sign of continuity for the run D in any event unless a trade is in the works. Hard to believe the Bengals would fork out all the $ for 2 DEs but the position is expensive and trying to upgrade with a free agent that's probably not going to be there or rolling the dice with a high pick rook won't help a defense that has lots of ?. There's some security in what they've done, at least for a year. Now they've got a bucket of their own smaller fish to fry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kazkal Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Wow bengals.com hates justin with a passion I guess they want more players like Odell and Cperry who can't stay on the field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurmanation Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Wow bengals.com hates justin with a passion I guess they want more players like Odell and Cperry who can't stay on the field.hey hey hey, i never bad talked justin no need to bring Big O's name into the conversation! EDIT: your right though, i jus checked over at bengals.com and theres a war going on about tagging him and letting him goand heres 15 DE's tha are IMO better then Justin, and half dont get payed nearly as much.Jason Taylor - Miami DolphinsDwight Freeney - Indianapolis ColtsReggie Hayward - Jacksonville JaguarsJarred Allen - Kansas City ChiefsDerrick Burgess - Oakland RaidersOsi Umenyiora - New York GiantsMicheal Strahan - New York GiantsWill Smith - New Orleans SaintsJevon Kearse - Philadelphia EaglesAdewale Ogunleye - Chicago BearsJohn Abraham - Atlanta FalconsJulius Peppers - Carolina PanthersSimeon Rice - Tampa Bay BuccaneersPatrick Kerney - Atlanta FalconsRichard Seymour - New England Patriots Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kazkal Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierCat Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 A few odds & ends to consider...Justin may not be "worth" nearly $9m, but then, neither is anyone else likely to be a FA this March. Even if the Bengals had managed to land some big-bucks FA, say Clements, he wouldn't have been worth the coin, either. As a rule, FAs are always overpaid. 'Tis the nature of the beast.Justin had been making an average of about $6.5m a year. And that was on a deal worked out 6 years ago. So from an inflationary point of view, as well as a cap one, its not a big jump.And finally, a case can be made that, if the D has stunk during Smith's, it isnt attributable to him. Here's the Bengals defensive ranks in the six years prior to Justin:1995 - 301996 - 241997 - 281998 - 271999 - 242000 - 22Then post-Justin:2001 - 112002 - 172003 - 282004 - 192005 - 282006 - 30In other words, the best 3 years out of the last 12 have all been with Smith on the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kazkal Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 "steals hooisers info to post on bengals.com"Lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierCat Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Oh, one other thing to consider:As it turned out, with one play last year, Justin Smith would have singlehandedly put the Bengals in the playoffs.But the ref in Tampa took it away on what is universally acknowledged as the worst bad call of the season.But Justin sucks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirkendall Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Man, I'm totally in the minority here.... for several reasons. But...1. Smith won't play on the franchise deal. This is formality before a long-term contract -- like Rudi Johnson. My biggest question is, why the franchise? Is it specific to the Smith negotiations and they don't think it can be done by March? Or... (see #2)2. I think this is telling about Steinbach. From reports, the team REALLY wanted Steinbach back. That was #1 priority. So does that mean... that the team and Steinbach are close and the franchise was used to keep Smith off the FA block while Steinbach negotiations could take past the free agency date. On the other hand, did the team just give up and decide to go right after Smith.I guess the ultimate question is why the franchise?I like Smith as much as the next guy, but c'mon. Smith was a good defender for the Bengals that overall sucked in a lot of areas among the league. And the "he was one good player" doesn't fly with me. The defense still sucked. I know, I know (what should we do then?). I'm not even saying this is a bad move. Just that this defense is still status quo -- but there's plenty of FA and Drafting to be gettin' done. So keep in mind while ripping me, that I'm a fence sitter on this one.And finally, a case can be made that, if the D has stunk during Smith's, it isnt attributable to him. Here's the Bengals defensive ranks in the six years prior to Justin:1995 - 301996 - 241997 - 281998 - 271999 - 242000 - 22Then post-Justin:2001 - 112002 - 172003 - 282004 - 192005 - 282006 - 30In other words, the best 3 years out of the last 12 have all been with Smith on the team.Well, isn't that a round about way of proving how dreadful our defense has been. Thanks for that Joisey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whur CHad At? Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 He was on our team, in 05 06, and we stunk. Not saying it was all his fault but he didnt really help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kazkal Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 He's one player. put aaron schobel or will smith on our team and I bet our defense still sucks just as much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierCat Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 He's one player. put aaron schobel or will smith on our team and I bet our defense still sucks just as much.And there it is. One man...with no help. Going back over that six-year span before he was drafted, look at the Bengals' day 1 selections on the defensive side of the ball:Reinard WilsonTakeo SpikesBrian SimmonsThird and ArtrellSteve FoleyCharles FischerCorey HallMark RomanQuite the pile o' Pro Bowlers, eh? And not one other d-lineman among them, except for Reinard who they promptly converted to OLB. Or at least tried to.Didn't get much better after they picked him. After selecting Justin in the first in '01 they didn't take a defender until the mighty Riall Johnson in the 6th. 2002's single day 1 defender was Lamont "Dummy" Thompson. No day 1 defenders in '03 and the guy they took in the 4th was Dennis "Schleprock" Weathersby.2004, they famously took Chris Perry in the first, tho they then, finally, spent some picks on D with Ratliff, Williams, Landon, and Miller. So far that crop has yielded one starter.Finally, in 2005, they spent both two top picks on the D...and we know what's happened there. Kerplunk...kerplooey. Someone upstairs hates us. In '06 they took Joseph in the first and -- lo and behold! -- a day 1 defensive lineman in the 3rd, Non-Dairy Dessert Rucker. Rucker was their second day 1 d-lineman since 1995 -- the other one being Justin. And of course he promptly went on IR. And got arrested. Not necessarily in that order.So, to sum up, the Bengals have spent more than a decade not drafting defenders (and declining to play in FA outside the bargain bin) and specifically between 1995 and 2005 -- 11 drafts -- drafted just ONE defensive lineman. Yet, now we are to understand that its all that defensive lineman's fault?I think that's a little rough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kazkal Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 "likes it when hooiser is on his side" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kazkal Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Wooo most of bengals.com on my ass now for not being agaist the justin smith signing...the admin is saying it was worst move in franchise history lol over turning down all draft picks from the saints to draft akili. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Hugg Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 I'm much happier spending this money on Justin Smith then using it to entice free agents to come visit Cincinnati, have their agents talk about how interested they are in the Bengals and then watch them sign with someone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spain Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Good move. TFL is a sack in my book. That makes him worth it. The footballismo, master of all things realted to football. The master blaster. Ghost with the most. High at work. Walking with my Ipod smoking a joint in peace. Has spoken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTG Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 . Tag Steiney, let Justin walk.It's funny people bitch about how it's overpaying justin but they'll turn around and wanna over pay steinbach.For what it's worth, Steinbach is a top five guard. Justin is not a top five end. Justin couldn't even record double digit sacks in a CONTRACT season. He put up three sacks in the first game, then recorded 4.5 in the last 15 games. Hell, over the last ten games he had three half-sacks. Oh mercy! Be still my beating heart! The bottom line is, those numbers would be fine for a defensive tackle, but for a DE? Come on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierCat Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 For what it's worth, Steinbach is a top five guard. Justin is not a top five end.I would have agreed with you before last season, when Steiney looked like crap. Now, maybe he just had an off year, maybe it was him trying to do too much with all the o-line shuffling, who knows. But even since he slipped up and let Kimo come through and rip up Carson's knee he hasn't looked he same to me.That said, if they had decided to go with Eric over Justin, I would have been fine with that as well. Justin couldn't even record double digit sacks in a CONTRACT seasonI've always thought the whole "contract year" thing was overrated. Do players just have this switch they turn on? Do you really want a guy who can but only does once every 3-4-5-6 years? Justin is a solid starter at DE, nothing more but also nothing less. He may not be "worth" the money, but given the nature of FA it's what's needed to keep him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTG Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 For what it's worth, Steinbach is a top five guard. Justin is not a top five end.I would have agreed with you before last season, when Steiney looked like crap. Now, maybe he just had an off year, maybe it was him trying to do too much with all the o-line shuffling, who knows. But even since he slipped up and let Kimo come through and rip up Carson's knee he hasn't looked he same to me.I think a big problem last year was Brahm's injury and (as you mentioned) the constant shuffling of the players. That kills the chemistry of a line, and it makes great players look so so. The real problem with Steinbach not being resigned , it takes a while to regain the overall line chemistry once you've allowed a key player to leave. Just look at what happened in Seattle when Hutchinson left. Justin couldn't even record double digit sacks in a CONTRACT seasonI've always thought the whole "contract year" thing was overrated. Do players just have this switch they turn on? It's been historically proven that some players "turn up their game" in the final season of their contract. It happens in the NFL, but it's not as big of a problem as it is in the NBA due to the guaranteed salaries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierCat Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 The real problem with Steinbach not being resigned , it takes a while to regain the overall line chemistry once you've allowed a key player to leave. Just look at what happened in Seattle when Hutchinson left.I don't doubt it will take a bit to gel. But Whitworth got a lot of PT last season, and as long as the whole line can get in a full TC and preseason they ought to be fine. Honestly, I've got more questions about whether Bluto is really the future at C than I do about Whitworth stepping in for Steinbach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schweinhart Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Justin is a solid starter at DE, nothing more but also nothing less. He may not be "worth" the money, but given the nature of FA it's what's needed to keep him.No doubt and one in hand is better than one they don't get even if he's not going to ring up sacks.But I remain puzzled by the Jumpy Jr. deal if the Bengals do intend to extend Justin. On the front end Jumpy got what J-Abe fteched after he got traded off his tag last year -- $12.5 SB, 6 years with a $2 mill base in 1st year. So he basically got franhcise money, which seems awfully hard to justify for a player that's not a starter and wouldn't seem as able to be an every down end on the left side as the right. Suppose Justin can get switched back to the other side.If the Bengals do give Justin the J-Abe deal with a little extra $ then they're still looking at probably $5 mill cap this year -- $3 or so mill less to sign a few others this year. But there's always the chance they just keep him for one year like the Jets did with J-Abe the 1st time they tagged him.Trade won't likely fetch much for Justin. Last year the Jets landed #29 in the draft for their efforts, so it's hard to imagine that the Bengals trade him for the equivalent or just to swap picks higher up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairOnFire Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Yet you wanna let go one of the few relieable players we have?most agree he's not worth top 5 DE money...but really he's the best option we have at the potion.This is the only problem i have with him, he should never recieve this kind of money..EVER! It's funny how fans of signing top shelf free agents scream for the Bengals to overpay for this guy or overpay for that guy, but when it's one of the Bengals own free agent players being pursued those same fans drop nickles and dimes as if they were manhole covers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walzav29 Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 I like Whitworth at guard better than Steinbach. The Bengals will not miss a beat with that exchange, but who would fill in for our favorite beer drinking DE? He is solid, and does work hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairOnFire Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 1. Smith won't play on the franchise deal. This is formality before a long-term contract -- like Rudi Johnson. My biggest question is, why the franchise? Is it specific to the Smith negotiations and they don't think it can be done by March? Or... (see #2)2. I think this is telling about Steinbach. From reports, the team REALLY wanted Steinbach back. That was #1 priority. So does that mean... that the team and Steinbach are close and the franchise was used to keep Smith off the FA block while Steinbach negotiations could take past the free agency date. On the other hand, did the team just give up and decide to go right after Smith. 1 - Why the franchise tender? Because the transition tag isn't much cheaper, doesn't guarantee the Bengals anything in return, and probably wouldn't prevent teams from making offers to Smith. The franchise tag means the phone in the office of Smith's agent won't ring. (Even once.) 2 - I'm betting the idea of signing Steinbach is toast, and has been for quite some time. I have no doubt the Bengals wanted him back, but only at a price they were willing to pay....and I have very few doubts that Steinbach's asking price was always too much to pay for a player who routinely got his ass kicked by bigger defenders. The Bengals are even admitting now that this was a concern. Previously, they touted his versatility. To be fair, I think the Bengals were actually willing to overpay for Steinbach to a point, but Steinbach knows other teams will pay more and he's more than willing to leave. In fact, I think Steinbach actually wants to leave while Smith is more than willing to stay. "likes it when hooiser is on his side" Yeah, he's pretty good when he decides to make sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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