The Great TE Debate Thread

[GapControl]

Let's finish cherrying out the O, which wont take a lot, then put the rest on D.

Well, that's sorta like buying bigger breast implants for your already hot mistress when your wife is dying of some horrible disease and can't afford the operation that could save her life.

Then again, it's not like that at all.

Thanks for your time.

That is hilarious, yet, very dark. I like the analogy. We need last years rookies on defense to get into the game in 2007 and have another infusion of rookies from the draft. Although, I think J. Smith won`t deserve his asking price, maybe keeping him and signing one another defensive free-agent, (thinking LB here) would atleast put a band-aid on our lovely wife`s degenerating illness.

I really think S.Smith should play in front of J. Thornton, and letting JT go would open up the wallet a little bit more.

Hey, this isn`t Lorenzo`s Oil but, it can help buy us time!!

[HoosierCat]

Then again, it's not like that at all.

Absolutely right, it isn't. The bottom line is that this team had a worse D, and a better O, in 2005 vs. 2006. If the Bengals get back to playoffs in 2007, it will be because of the offense, not the defense.

[HairOnFire]

The bottom line is that this team had a worse D, and a better O, in 2005 vs. 2006. If the Bengals get back to playoffs in 2007, it will be because of the offense, not the defense.

How about we let the Bengals play the 2007 season before we start writing about what went right or wrong? As for last season...it seems to me that the Bengals defense deserves credit for half of the Bengals 8 wins last season.

I do understand the point about the offense being a team strength and the defense a longstanding problem that probably won't get better soon, but in my opinion you have to make an attempt to improve your biggest weakness before you put the last finishing touch on an offense that has already gotten an unbalanced amount of attention.

[HoosierCat]

I do understand the point about the offense being a team strength and the defense a longstanding problem that probably won't get better soon, but in my opinion you have to make an attempt to improve your biggest weakness before you put the last finishing touch on an offense that has already gotten an unbalanced amount of attention.

Signing, or even drafting, a TE isn't going to substantially impact the team's ability to improve the defense. Moreover, just in case this fact has escaped anyone, it's something that they have to do anyhow. With both Stewart and Kelly UFAs, the bengals don't have a TE on the roster, outside of the PS.

[HairOnFire]

Signing, or even drafting, a TE isn't going to substantially impact the team's ability to improve the defense. Moreover, just in case this fact has escaped anyone, it's something that they have to do anyhow. With both Stewart and Kelly UFAs, the bengals don't have a TE on the roster, outside of the PS.

Sign a veteran TE in FA and I won't offer a peep of complaint. But burn another high draft pick on yet another offensive luxury that this team can't afford and I'll bark plenty. And if you wait until the drafts 2nd day to add a TE you're not likely to find a player who is better than Kelly or Stewart...so the smart play would be keeping what you've got, right?

[HoosierCat]

Sign a veteran TE in FA and I won't offer a peep of complaint. But burn another high draft pick on yet another offensive luxury that this team can't afford and I'll bark plenty.

Well, signing a vet TE in FA is my preference, and I think the general thrust of the thread. As for the draft, I don't see a day 1 TE unless Miller or Olsen slips and is there in the second. If reports that they wanted Fasano last season are true, then you have to think they'd pull the trigger on one of those two in the second. Whether that's worth barking over depends on what happens in March, I think.

[Kazkal]

Signing, or even drafting, a TE isn't going to substantially impact the team's ability to improve the defense. Moreover, just in case this fact has escaped anyone, it's something that they have to do anyhow. With both Stewart and Kelly UFAs, the bengals don't have a TE on the roster, outside of the PS.

Sign a veteran TE in FA and I won't offer a peep of complaint. But burn another high draft pick on yet another offensive luxury that this team can't afford and I'll bark plenty. And if you wait until the drafts 2nd day to add a TE you're not likely to find a player who is better than Kelly or Stewart...so the smart play would be keeping what you've got, right?

well marcus colston was saw as a TE pre draft.

Miller would be aight in the 2nd I woulden't mind if guys like bishop and houston were long gone.

[kentjett]

Do any of you guys know the stats on TE. We have a very good offense and I would be willing to bet that we are near the bottom in TE completions. TE is a Qb's best friend.

[HoosierCat]

Do any of you guys know the stats on TE. We have a very good offense and I would be willing to bet that we are near the bottom in TE completions. TE is a Qb's best friend.

Reggie Kelly was our best TE in '06. Among all TEs, he was 31st in receptions and 27th in yards last season.

[HairOnFire]

Miller would be aight in the 2nd

Anybody catch Hobson's latest response to fan letters? In short, he steals heavily from my position and opines that anyone who considers using a first day draft choice on any offensive position is either very high or a hopeless fugtard.

Frankly, I find it remarkable that many of the biggest critics of the Bengal defense would willingly ignore one of the best chances to improve it in favor of yet another offensive role player.

[HoosierCat]

Anybody catch Hobson's latest response to fan letters? In short, he steals heavily from my position and opines that anyone who considers using a first day draft choice on any offensive position is either very high or a hopeless fugtard.

Well, before you haul Geoff too far into your camp, remember this is the guy who said a couple Hobson's Choice columns back they ought to take the best WR available...

[HairOnFire]

Reggie Kelly was our best TE in '06. Among all TEs, he was 31st in receptions and 27th in yards last season.

And where do the Bengals rank in number of pass attempts thrown to TE's?

32nd? 31st? 25th?

Why bemoan a lack of production that reflects how little the Bengals purposely and deliberately use TE's in their offense? Isn't the more important question related to the Bengals preference for TE's who are primarily blockers OR their fondness for 3rd down formations that feature 5 WR's?

[HairOnFire]

Anybody catch Hobson's latest response to fan letters? In short, he steals heavily from my position and opines that anyone who considers using a first day draft choice on any offensive position is either very high or a hopeless fugtard.

Well, before you haul Geoff too far into your camp, remember this is the guy who said a couple Hobson's Choice columns back they ought to take the best WR available...

He didn't say that. He pointed out the Bengals habit of replenishing the WR corp every couple of years and offered that it might be time to dip into the well again. In theory he's on solid ground, but I think he's guilty of ignoring the fact that the Bengals have repeatedly addressed the WR position in each of the last two drafts as well as in FA last year. Regardless, in his last column he not only seems to have regained his footing, but has seen fit to question yours.

Obviously, I don't disagree.

Let other teams attempt to build the perfect offense on paper. For once, let's forget that we're the Bastard Sons of Paul Brown by giving proper attention to the defensive side of the ball.

[HoosierCat]

Why bemoan a lack of production that reflects how little the Bengals purposely and deliberately use TE's in their offense? Isn't the more important question related to the Bengals preference for TE's who are primarily blockers OR their fondness for 3rd down formations that feature 5 WR's?

Whether a team "purposesly and deliberately" uses a TE in their offense tends to be predicated on whether they have a worthwhile TE to use. Almost always, if they don't have a top-caliber TE, additional pass catching duties fall to a RB. Looking at the Bengals top-10-offense peer group, you can see the TE being used in places like Indy and SD, while the RB gets the call in places like St. Louis (Steven Jackson) and NO (Reggie Bush).

Obviously, the Bengals tried to take the latter approach with your favorite player to hate on, Chris Perry. But due to his recurring injury problems, that hasn't worked out.

As for the impact of the TE, or that matter the pass-catching RB, on the WRs -- or vice-versa -- the last three years' completion numbers suggest that the more passes we complete to TEs or RBs, the more catches the wideouts get, too (which kind of shoves a stake in that whole theory of Hobs' about not having enough balls to throw around). In '05, the Bengals completed 123 passes to TEs and RBs, the most in the last three seasons, largely thanks to C. Perry. That same year also saw wideouts catch 239 passes. Last year, they threw 96 completions to the TE and RB combined, while WR receptions slipped to 231.

[HairOnFire]

Whether a team "purposesly and deliberately" uses a TE in their offense tends to be predicated on whether they have a worthwhile TE to use. Almost always, if they don't have a top-caliber TE, additional pass catching duties fall to a RB.

Predictably, I don't agree. The level of talent a team has at any position is usually a reflection of how important they consider the position to be, the options provided by complimentary positions, and how commited they are to use highly valued draft or FA assets to staff the position.

It's no accident that the Bengals haven't used high draft picks on a TE since Bratkowski installed his scheme, nor is it an accident that when the Bengals signed a free agent Pro Bowl TE that it was Reggie Kelly, a block-first role player. And it's also no accident that the Bengals have instead used a 1st round pick on a 3rd down pass catching RB and a 3rd round pick on a WR who was never intended to start.

Looking back over many years it's become obvious that the Bengals don't emphasize throwing the ball to any of their TE's regardless of whatever individual talent those players have. Instead, they're far more likely to use 4 and 5 WR sets or throw checkdowns to their RB's....largely dictated by which players are healthy or productive at any given time.

And regardless of how a new TE is obtained once they are signed they quickly learn that blocking is job one, and if they can't master that task they're not getting on the field at all.

[Spor_tees]

If you look at all the good teams you will see that they all have a good TE. Having a good TE does so much more than just catch passes. Simply the threat of him catching passes makes the other team respect that and even when the TE doesn't block, the other team has to stay back just in case to cover him and not think run only. With Reggie Kelly in the game they think run first and pass second therefore off setting his blocking. That one split second of uncertainty by the LB or safety that has the duties of covering the TE could be the difference of Rudi getting through the hole and into the secondary.

Look at the difference Dallas Clark made for the Colts. They have Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison, and Joseph Addai, yet they don't have a problem with getting it to the TE. It's a ridiculous argument to say the TE position isn't important. Any time you have a certain TE in the game that has specific strengths/weaknesses it lets the defense to key into what the offense is doing. If you have a good TE it allows an offense the element of surprise which can mean the difference in a big play or no gain.

If you gave Palmer a good TE the Bengals third down percentage would probably go up by 10 points or more, and Palmer would have less sacks, and therefore less fumbles. Any time you give a QB another option, you aren't hurting the team, you are helping it. I have always told my friends, the key to a good and efficient offense is a good TE. If you look at all the teams that have good third down conversion percentages and good red zone touchdown percentages, they have good TE's! A team can only throw up a lob to a WR on a corner route so many times before the other team expects it and double teams it, yet with a good TE, they can't double up on it because they have to worry about him.

I could go on and on and on about this...but it is useless because some people won't either take the time to learn the importance of the TE and the difference he makes in the game or simply they have their mindset and just don't like to change it. Regardless, a TE may not take the limelight most of the time, and some of his duties don't get highlighted by the tv commentators, but what he does or even simply the threat of what he can do, IS important. And it doesn't matter what kind of offensive system a team uses.

[HairOnFire]

If you gave Palmer a good TE the Bengals third down percentage would probably go up by 10 points or more, and Palmer would have less sacks, and therefore less fumbles. Any time you give a QB another option, you aren't hurting the team, you are helping it.

Any 3rd down pass thrown to a TE is one less ball thrown to a RB like Chris Perry or Kenny Watson, one less thrown to a FB with soft hands like Jeremi Johnson, and one less thrown to wideouts like Chris Henry, Tab Perry, or Antonio Chatrman...players who thrive in multi-WR sets. So, when healthy, the Bengals on't lack weapons or 3rd down options.

And let's not forget that while the Bengals don't have TE's who are capable of stretching the field deep they most certainly do have TE's who are capable catching an endless stream of dump off throws. Of course you don't often see those types of throws....because the Bengals prefer exploiting the other options available to them.

Frankly, I think any poster on this message board who spends his time promoting the idea of using yet another highly valued team asset on adding another weapon to an already potent offense has willingly surrendered his right to bitch, whine, and moan about the Bengals defense.

[Spor_tees]

By saying the Bengals could have a good TE does not say anything about adding to the defense. Since when does getting one good TE take up 7 picks in the draft? All of the free agency money? That last comment was really ignorant honestly. Look at New England, they have a good defense...yet they have drafted Daniel Graham in the first round, Ben Watson in the first round 2 years later, then David Thomas in the third round last year.

Boy they sure have suffered.

[HoosierCat]

Any 3rd down pass thrown to a TE is one less ball thrown to a RB like Chris Perry or Kenny Watson, one less thrown to a FB with soft hands like Jeremi Johnson, and one less thrown to wideouts like Chris Henry, Tab Perry, or Antonio Chatrman

Not necessarily. The Bengals do, in fact, utilize the TE position in the passing game already. Bengals TEs have averaged just under 40 receptions a year over the last three years. And those are just receptions; given an average completion rate of 63% over those 3 years, they probably throw at the TE somewhere in the neighborhood of 60 times a year. In short, there are plenty of opportunities for a quality TE to make a difference without taking a single throw away from anyone else.

[HairOnFire]

That last comment was really ignorant honestly. Look at New England, they have a good defense...yet they have drafted Daniel Graham in the first round, Ben Watson in the first round 2 years later, then David Thomas in the third round last year.

Boy they sure have suffered.

You seem to have a firm grasp on ignorance.

Never mind, let's take a look at your New England example. The Patriots have invested three first day draft choices on the TE position...proving how commited they are to the TE position. So what assets did the Bengals commit to the TE position during the same time period?

No draft picks at all, right? And just a single major FA addition of a blocking TE. Plus, the bengals "Move TE" was a waiver wire addition whose continued presence on the roster is largely due to the role he plays on special teams. Finally, they willingly let their best pass catching TE leave in free agency without a struggle, largely because his failings as a blocker kept him off the field. His replacement? A big WR with a reputation for physical play.

So where is the proof that the Bengals even consider a pass catching TE important...let alone so vital that it needs to be addressed with a high draft pick?

Obviously there is no proof whatsoever that the Bengals consider the TE position to be more than a non-vital block first position...so their lack of production at that position is a result of deliberate design. And that same design has resulted in the Bengals placing far more importance on the WR position than the Patriots. In on that point, critics can now be heard loudly complaining that the Patriots dynasty has come to an end largely due to the poorer quality wideouts that Tom Brady has to work with.

[HairOnFire]

In short, there are plenty of opportunities for a quality TE to make a difference without taking a single throw away from anyone else.

Well good luck selling that one. Didn't we just witness a Chad Johnson meltdown complaining that he was little more than a hood ornament and a decoy when in fact he was actually being thrown to more than any WR in the NFL? And didn't we just witness a season where not a single pass was thrown to a very good pass catching FB over the first half of the season?

Frankly, if you spend a high draft pick on an upgrade at TE you should be able to count on better production than you're getting now. But that's missing the point. The Bengals offense already has more weapons than it can effectively use and that's true because of the tremendous amount of attention and money devoted to building a very strong and balanced offense.

So exactly when do you guys feel it's time to start paying real attention to building the defense? When do you stop using draft picks and free agent money trying to create the best offense that can be built on paper? When is enough enough? And when are this teams offensive failings on 3rd down placed firmly on the players and coaches who are here now instead of on the only position that has yet to receive first day draft attention.

Sheesh, every one of you keeps claiming that you're not saying that a high draft pick needs to be used on a TE, yet Spor Tees holds up an example where a team has burned three first day picks and Hoosier keeps refering to the addition of an elite TE without explaining where the upgrade will come from.

Well forgive me for pointing out the obvious, but if you're thinking draft pick you're guilty of cheating the defense....again.

[HoosierCat]

I'm not sure that the Pats' choices of Graham and Watson necessarily reflect a focus on the TE position. When you pick at the bottom of the first round, you tend to run into a lot of situations where TE is also BPA. Take the Steelers taking Miller in '05 or the Jags taking Marcedes Lewis at 28 last April. Neither of those teams can really be said to feature the TE. At least not along the lines of a Cleveland or Baltimore or SD. Those teams have TEs with 70-90 receptions a year. Meanwhile, the Pats' Graham has a career high of 38 receptions in a single year.

[HoosierCat]

In short, there are plenty of opportunities for a quality TE to make a difference without taking a single throw away from anyone else.

Well good luck selling that one.

I don't have to. It's a fact. I gave you the numbers, which you conveniently ignored.

Frankly, if you spend a high draft pick on an upgrade at TE you should be able to count on better production than you're getting now.

You almost certainly will. Get a good TE who can actually catch, stretch the field, break a tackle, etc., and you'll end up with more receptions, more yards and more points out of the same number of throws.

The Bengals offense already has more weapons than it can effectively use

It does? Says who? In 2005 the Bengals had 10 guys with double-digit reception numbers; last season they had 7 -- and two of those guys, Kelly and Stewart, are FAs. Sounds like there's plenty of room.

[HairOnFire]

I'm not sure that the Pats' choices of Graham and Watson necessarily reflect a focus on the TE position.

Really? How many 1st round picks do they have to have before you'd agree? Since they've already have two I'm guessing that you'd only agree it was a priority if the Patriot's 3rd string TE was also a 1st round pick. As it is, he was a 3rd round pick....higher than any pick the Bengals have devoted to the TE position since the days of Marco Battaglia.

[Spor_tees]

That last comment was really ignorant honestly. Look at New England, they have a good defense...yet they have drafted Daniel Graham in the first round, Ben Watson in the first round 2 years later, then David Thomas in the third round last year.

Boy they sure have suffered.

Obviously there is no proof whatsoever that the Bengals consider the TE position to be more than a non-vital block first position...so their lack of production at that position is a result of deliberate design. And that same design has resulted in the Bengals placing far more importance on the WR position than the Patriots. In on that point, critics can now be heard loudly complaining that the Patriots dynasty has come to an end largely due to the poorer quality wideouts that Tom Brady has to work with.

Obviously you have missed the point and seem to find more importance in twisting someone else's words to fit your use than looking at the point at hand. First off, the New England example was simply pointing out that just because you have a TE on your roster doesn't mean you become complacent and stop trying to improve. Second off, since when is the Tom Brady dynasty over? Didn't he just play in the AFC Championship game and take Indy down to the final drive?

Your choice of saying that your position on the TE is right because of the what the Bengals do now, is far off base. That would be the same as me saying that your position on the Bengals defense is wrong because the Bengals have yet to build a better defense. Everyone knows the Bengals need a better defense. That's not classified Top Secret.

If you look at all the teams that have been deemed dynasties you will see a pretty god TE. The 49ers had Dwight Clark or Brent Jones, Cowboys had Jay Novachek, Giants had Mark Bavarro, Patriots have had Ben Coates, Daniel Graham, and Ben Watson, the Packers had Mark Chmura and Bubba Franks, the Ravens have had Shannon Sharpe and Todd Heap, the Broncos had Shannon Sharpe...I could go on forever. Tell me the last Super Bowl team that didn't have a good TE?

I'm honestly not going to waste anymore time arguing with you because your cantor is snobbish and I have yet to see you EVER yield a point to anyone on this board. Arguing with you is like trying to get a crack addict to put down the pipe, useless.