laserluver Posted January 1, 2007 Report Share Posted January 1, 2007 I'm a new poster here and a long time Bengals fan (since 1968). I know that some of you are probably not in agreement with my feelings on Shane Graham and I'm not scapegoating him for missing the game winning field goal although it did effectively end the Bengals playoff hopes because there wouldn't have been OT had he made it. In fact, there are many other problems that need to be corrected on this team, from the run defense, right on up to poor decision making by the coaching staff. However, the reason that I feel that Graham must go is because of his frequent pathetic lack of distance on kickoffs in crucial situations. This deficiency reared it's ugly head once again today in the 4th quarter after the Bengals had scored to take the lead with the TD pass to either Henry or Stewart, I forget which. On the ensuing kickoff, Graham didn't even get the ball to the 20 yard line! Add in poor coverage on the return and the Steelers offense started that possession with the ball on the 40 yard line. With the way that Roethlisberger and company were moving through the Bengals D like a knife through butter you can't give them that kind of field position when the entire season is riding on it. I don't care how accurate he is with field goals (which he wasn't today). They definitely need a kicker who can get the ball into or near the end zone consistently, especially in situations like today. For that reason, I think that the Bengals need to look for another kicker and to let Graham go. And maybe he can take Brad St. Louis with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kazkal Posted January 1, 2007 Report Share Posted January 1, 2007 Shayne has improved some off his kickoffs but still could use some more work...I Wonder though if they ever try letting Larson do Kickoffs in practice... that besaing I'd perfer to keel shayne just bring in some UDFA's to compete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC_Bengals_Fan Posted January 1, 2007 Report Share Posted January 1, 2007 Even after yesterday, no way I get rid of Shayne. That's nuts. 1) That kick was just weird, I've never seen a ball hook that badly in midair. Sometimes, s**t just happens. 2) I'd rather get a kickoff specialist if that's the problem. But no way do I pin this loss on him. Shayne is usually money, and ask Parcells what a reliable kicker is worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laserluver Posted January 1, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2007 Even after yesterday, no way I get rid of Shayne. That's nuts. 1) That kick was just weird, I've never seen a ball hook that badly in midair. Sometimes, s**t just happens. 2) I'd rather get a kickoff specialist if that's the problem. But no way do I pin this loss on him. Shayne is usually money, and ask Parcells what a reliable kicker is worth.In the end, it all came down to Graham and he sealed their fate. The bottom line is they'd be going to the playoffs if he'd have made that kick. Put him in the same category as Scot Norwood... and ship him out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC_Bengals_Fan Posted January 1, 2007 Report Share Posted January 1, 2007 Even after yesterday, no way I get rid of Shayne. That's nuts. 1) That kick was just weird, I've never seen a ball hook that badly in midair. Sometimes, s**t just happens. 2) I'd rather get a kickoff specialist if that's the problem. But no way do I pin this loss on him. Shayne is usually money, and ask Parcells what a reliable kicker is worth.In the end, it all came down to Graham and he sealed their fate. The bottom line is they'd be going to the playoffs if he'd have made that kick. Put him in the same category as Scot Norwood... and ship him out!How many balls did Carson overthrow? Do we cut him too? Dexter whiffed on a sack in the end zone. Do we cut him? TJ and Chad both dropped balls. Do we cut them?I refuse to cut a guy for making a mistake simply because of when the mistake happened unless I have real reason to believe he's a choker, and I don't believe that of Shayne. Yours is an emotional response, understandable the day after the game. But to cut Shayne is, as I said earlier, nuts. Reliable kickers don't grow on trees. Who do we replace him with? You're just giving yourself bigger problems than we have now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwjcgc Posted January 1, 2007 Report Share Posted January 1, 2007 Reliable? Maybe when there isn't any real pressure to perform.This kind of miss will most likely haunt him for the rest of his career. It will be constantly rehashed anytime he has a clutch kick. Obviously you can't get rid of him today, but the team needs to plan on moving him when a good candidate is ready. They definitely need to bring some options into training camp.Like Norwood, this will be very tough for Shayne to live down. Kicking at this level is mostly mental - he may lose his edge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F.Cleveland Posted January 1, 2007 Report Share Posted January 1, 2007 Reliable? Maybe when there isn't any real pressure to perform.This kind of miss will most likely haunt him for the rest of his career. It will be constantly rehashed anytime he has a clutch kick. Obviously you can't get rid of him today, but the team needs to plan on moving him when a good candidate is ready. They definitely need to bring some options into training camp.Like Norwood, this will be very tough for Shayne to live down. Kicking at this level is mostly mental - he may lose his edge.Maybe we need to bring in a new sky.... The one we have now seems to be falling.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spain Posted January 1, 2007 Report Share Posted January 1, 2007 your retarded, the lil school bus is calling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laserluver Posted January 1, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2007 How many balls did Carson overthrow? Do we cut him too? Dexter whiffed on a sack in the end zone. Do we cut him? TJ and Chad both dropped balls. Do we cut them?I refuse to cut a guy for making a mistake simply because of when the mistake happened unless I have real reason to believe he's a choker, and I don't believe that of Shayne. Yours is an emotional response, understandable the day after the game. But to cut Shayne is, as I said earlier, nuts. Reliable kickers don't grow on trees. Who do we replace him with? You're just giving yourself bigger problems than we have now.As I said, the main reason for getting rid of him is not that one missed field goal that ended the Bengals 2006 season. The main reason is that his kickoff distance is too short, too often, especially at crucial times like during the 4th quarter yesterday. JMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7/11 Posted January 1, 2007 Report Share Posted January 1, 2007 i don't think we should cut him outright, but i do think we should have legit competition in t.c. next season.there's a certain -itis with kickers. it's the most psychological position in the game. kickers have too much time to think...look at mike vanderjagt- that dude is money on fg's...physically. but after he missed them field goals a couple years ago against the (patriots?), his psyche went down the crapper. i think graham can overcome the psychological issues, but we got to make sure, one way or another, that we have a focused kicker back there next season.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhoDey93285 Posted January 1, 2007 Report Share Posted January 1, 2007 Reliable? Maybe when there isn't any real pressure to perform.This kind of miss will most likely haunt him for the rest of his career. It will be constantly rehashed anytime he has a clutch kick. Obviously you can't get rid of him today, but the team needs to plan on moving him when a good candidate is ready. They definitely need to bring some options into training camp.Like Norwood, this will be very tough for Shayne to live down. Kicking at this level is mostly mental - he may lose his edge. Haunt him the rest of his career? Scott Norwood missed a kick that would have won the SUPER BOWL. There's a big difference between missing a kick that would win the super bowl than missing a field goal that would have earned you a first round playoffs loss. Fact of the matter was this team was going no where, even had they made tyhe playoffs. You know who we would have played in the first round? The Colts. Enough Said. Yeah it will probably bother Shayne for awhile, but for the rest of his career? No way. I bet he's over it by next week. Getting rid of Shayne Graham would be sheer stupidity.Some examples of when Shayne has been reliable. These are just off the top of my head. 2004 versus Miami. Hit the Game winner with tons of pressure, it was our first nationally televised game in years. (It was on Sunday Night Football)Same year versus The Ravens. Again, tons of pressure. Team hadn't won a game on the road against a winning team in about 1000 years. I'm sure there's more. But just because he missed this kick, does not mean you ship him off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whur CHad At? Posted January 1, 2007 Report Share Posted January 1, 2007 I wouldn't get rid of Shayne, so he messed up. It's not his fault our defense sucks ass, and our offense couldn't help either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walshfan Posted January 1, 2007 Report Share Posted January 1, 2007 Graham isnt going anywhere..... 86% accuracy for a career .He thought the kick was good and was smiling.. He was as astonished as we were when it sailed a bit at the end.Where was the offense for 3/4 of the game??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwjcgc Posted January 1, 2007 Report Share Posted January 1, 2007 Scooter,So... your faith in Graham's ability to come through in the clutch is unwavering. Competition in next year's training camp for this position is futile in your opinion.Only time will tell, but I think that Graham will have difficulty putting this behind him. I hope I'm wrong. I really don't understand the reluctance to have him at a minimum re-earn his position in training camp. The press isn't going to let him forget this choke up for quite a while. Granted if a better option doesn't emerge you keep him. No one is calling to run him out of town on the first train out.There is some merit to the lack of depth in his kick-offs to be considered. It does however seem to be difficult to find boomers that are consistently accurate.Norwood comparison also has merit. If Shayne crumbled under the pressure yesterday, can you truly trust him when a championship is on the line?Side note: If he hits it yesterday, people would be calling Marvin a genius for finding a way to win when the team had a poor game. Instead we have what we have today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalSIS Posted January 1, 2007 Report Share Posted January 1, 2007 Shayne has been ASKING for a competitor in camp every year. He WANTS someone there to push him and save his leg as well. He believes having someone to compete against keeps him in the right mindset of always having something on the line and having to prove himself all the time. I hope they do bring someone in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laserluver Posted January 1, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2007 Shayne has been ASKING for a competitor in camp every year. He WANTS someone there to push him and save his leg as well. He believes having someone to compete against keeps him in the right mindset of always having something on the line and having to prove himself all the time. I hope they do bring someone in.If Shayne could get more distance with his kickoffs on a consistent basis, then he would be much more valuable to the team. That's his #1 deficiency, IMO. That's what was the most infuriating thing to me in yesterday's game after the Bengals had fought so hard to take the lead and finally got the momentum going their way in the 4th quarter. To have things swing back so quickly on the ensuing kickoff was extremely hard to take. To me, that was even more frustrating than the missed field goal. I hope he is able to find a way to get more distance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJJackson Posted January 1, 2007 Report Share Posted January 1, 2007 BengalSis: do you at least accept the fact that had he made that kick, given that the Broncos and Jacksonville lost just as we needed them to do, we'd have been in the playoffs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalSIS Posted January 2, 2007 Report Share Posted January 2, 2007 BengalSis: do you at least accept the fact that had he made that kick, given that the Broncos and Jacksonville lost just as we needed them to do, we'd have been in the playoffs?What kind of question is that? Of course that's the case. But that what if could be true for, sadly, many plays yesterday and the previous two games. My question is: Did we deserve to go to the playoffs?If he had made that kick, we'd have had another week to wear the black and orange and find excuses for celebration. But...the truth is, we had our chances to PROVE we deserved to be there and didn't. That kick was the nail in the coffin. It wasn't what killed us.I'm still sick over it, but it doesn't change the fact it would have been a gift for us to move forward. I sure wouldn't have felt proud to be there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maanster Posted January 2, 2007 Report Share Posted January 2, 2007 enough of this talk about shayne! the bengals problems are much deeper than a place kicker. untill they take care of that defense they will only be average. no more excusses our window for a super bowl run is open we have over 30 mill to spend in free agency. if they don't spend it on 2 new (defensive)starters shame on them. depending on rookies to put you over the hump will not cut it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoTbOy Posted January 2, 2007 Report Share Posted January 2, 2007 CHUCK must go, I'm not mad at SGraham, he has made more clutch kicks than he has missed...I would not get rid of him... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwjcgc Posted January 2, 2007 Report Share Posted January 2, 2007 " My question is: Did we deserve to go to the playoffs? "This is a strange question coming from someone backing the kicker. One of the marks of a good team is the ability to win when you aren't playing your best.Sunday Shayne kept this team from the playoffs. Had he made it, Marvin would look like a genius (almost).I'd be curious to hear BengalSIS list reasons why this team didn't deserve to go to the playoffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet23 Posted January 2, 2007 Report Share Posted January 2, 2007 I blame clock management more than Shane. I was looking directly through the uprights and that was dead nuts down the middle before it took a sudden right. Three more yards in and that is good. Had they not blown the timeout trying to ice Reed on a 35-yard freaking fg, they would have had plenty of time to try to pick up a few yards. ML needs to get a new trick. 1 minute and 2 to's is plent of time for Carson to get in fg range. What the hell is he doing burning a timeout in that situation?????? Also, just so you know Carson, the play where you take a knee after you believe the defense is offsides, hasn't worked the last three times. The only thing it does is end OUR drives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalSIS Posted January 2, 2007 Report Share Posted January 2, 2007 " My question is: Did we deserve to go to the playoffs? "This is a strange question coming from someone backing the kicker. One of the marks of a good team is the ability to win when you aren't playing your best.Sunday Shayne kept this team from the playoffs. Had he made it, Marvin would look like a genius (almost).I'd be curious to hear BengalSIS list reasons why this team didn't deserve to go to the playoffs.If you need me to explain why we don't deserve to be there, then you haven't been watching all season.Edit: Also...why on earth do we want to make anyone look like a genius when we need things to change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agreen_112 Posted January 2, 2007 Report Share Posted January 2, 2007 IF you miss the game wining kick your done in my opinion. But he's usually money so its a toss up. The Bengals won't cut anyone, they dont' have the freaking balls. I wanna see at least 3 or 4 guys cut this offseason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalSIS Posted January 2, 2007 Report Share Posted January 2, 2007 IF you miss the game wining kick your done in my opinion. But he's usually money so its a toss up. The Bengals won't cut anyone, they dont' have the freaking balls. I wanna see at least 3 or 4 guys cut this offseason.Kickers are going to miss sometimes. It's freakin human nature to fail. It's the % of times you succeed that matters. And he's 3-4 in realistic game winning kicks for the Bengals. And honest to goodness, I don't know how his kicks missed this time. The dern ball was headed right down the middle. I'm still frustrated. And....might I add. He's had plenty of chances for game winners/clutch kicks taken away due to sacks putting us out of range, or false starts backing us up too far, etc. All I can say is...if it's third down and you are in range....DON'T take the sack. Throw the ball OOB. He will be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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