Play makers on D. . . continued?

[Bengalhead]

I seem to recall a recent thread that pertained to the playmakers we have on the D this year. In fairness, I think that there is some decent talent on that side of the ball but how many people think that we still have a lot of play makers now? I've said it since the beginning of last year: If this team doesn't force turnovers, it simply does not stop people.

In addition, all of this talk about how great Justin Smith (and the rest of the D-line) is doesn't go far on me. Sacks are one thing - which Geathers is now out performing our boy Justin in sack production. But what this team is sorely missing is a consistent pass rush. The kind of rush that doesn't necessarily generate sacks but the rush that SONSISTENTLY disrupts the QBs, i.e. flushing him out of the pocket, collapsing the pocket, making him rush his throws, etc. I'm sick of seeing the QB have enough time to sit there and eat his lunch in the pocket to pick the secondary apart. By the way, two of the three sacks on sunday were gifts. The only legit sack was Geathers.

Is there still a consensus that we have play makers on D? If so, why aren't they making plays??

[Tasher]

Not in the correct gap or playing the right coverage technique.

Same as always.

[HairOnFire]

In addition, all of this talk about how great Justin Smith (and the rest of the D-line) is doesn't go far on me. Sacks are one thing - which Geathers is now out performing our boy Justin in sack production. But what this team is sorely missing is a consistent pass rush. The kind of rush that doesn't necessarily generate sacks but the rush that SONSISTENTLY disrupts the QBs, i.e. flushing him out of the pocket, collapsing the pocket, making him rush his throws, etc. I'm sick of seeing the QB have enough time to sit there and eat his lunch in the pocket to pick the secondary apart. By the way, two of the three sacks on sunday were gifts. The only legit sack was Geathers.

What was wrong with Thornton's sack? How did it displease you? Did he toss the Charger center aside a beat too late to earn your love?

The only gift sack that I observed on Sunday was Fat Sam Adams falling on a QB that had tripped and fallen on the ground. Sadly, I'm guessing that sack will probably be the only one Adams produces all year...which goes a long way towards explaining why I had no interest in him as a FA. Furthermore, if he doesn't lose 40 pounds I wouldn't invite him back next season.

Last, you do realize that this defense was built around David Pollack playing the designated pass rushing Joker role, right? If not, have you considered what the pass rush might look like if Pollack was doing his thing in support of Smith and Geathers?

[Tasher]

The only gift sack that I observed on Sunday was Fat Sam Adams falling on a QB that had tripped and fallen on the ground. Sadly, I'm guessing that sack will probably be the only one Adams produces all year...which goes a long way towards explaining why I had no interest in him as a FA. Furthermore, if he doesn't lose 40 pounds I wouldn't invite him back next season.

Last, you do realize that this defense was built around David Pollack playing the designated pass rushing Joker role, right? If not, have you considered what the pass rush might look like if Pollack was doing his thing in support of Smith and Geathers?

Au Contraire, THAT was no gift! Fat Sam pushed the OLineman off the snap to step on Rivers' foot to get that sack and then touched him. If he would have then hit him, it would have been an unnecessary roughness penalty.

See, this year, one is NOT allowed to actually physically hit the QB...

...one has to create the sacks in other ways!

[WhoDey93285]

I think we have alot of talent on the defensive side of theball...Williams, Deltha, Joseph, Jaxson, Geathers, Ahmad Brooks is going to be a monster...I don't know why we can't put it together. I do know that our D- Line is giving the quarterback about 3 and a half years to throw theb all every play. If we can't get a consistent pass rush on the quarterback, we're going to get torn apart. Our run defense hasn't been TERRIBLE this year, hasn't been good, but we can't defend the pass because we don't have a pass rush.

In thegame Sunday, in the first half, when we were blizting almost every play, our defense was successful because we were getting some pressure on Rivers. Pressure will distract ANY QB. It seems like we stopped blitzing and when we did, game over. Anyone else feel this way?

[HairOnFire]

Au Contraire, THAT was no gift! Fat Sam pushed the OLineman off the snap to step on Rivers' foot to get that sack and then touched him.

I stand corrected. But if Adams forced the play in the manner you describe then obviously there were no gift sacks, making the posters original point even more suspect.

[Bengalhead]

OK. first of all, Hair, I LOVE your avatar! However, I wouldn't consider my post suspect when our "playmakers" allow 42 points on one half and have not forced a turnover in three games. To me, that is a pretty clear description of not making plays - that is unless you're referring to the opposing offenses.

[Bengalhead]

Last, you do realize that this defense was built around David Pollack playing the designated pass rushing Joker role, right? If not, have you considered what the pass rush might look like if Pollack was doing his thing in support of Smith and Geathers?

[HairOnFire]

Personally, I don't like the idea that this defense is built around one player. If so and the player is injured, does the defense fold like a house of cards? (That's meant to be a rhetorical question but, based on the D's play you could say they did fold!) I'd rather the players just do their job. I would think that the pass rush would be better with Pollack but, unfortunately, he hasn't been able to be on the field consistently enough to really make much of a difference.

Whether you like the idea or not doesn't matter very much. The simple fact of is all defenses are built around player strengths, and David Pollack is first and foremost a pass rusher...the very thing you claim the Bengals are lacking.

In addition, until recently the Bengals have also been without Pollack's backup, Robert Jeanty, a player who can fill the position but doesn't provide the same pass rush. Now factor in the other injuries at LB, and there have been quite a few, and you get the massive shuffling that has resulted, and the inexperienced players that were forced to play earlier than intended.

As it stands, Justin Smith has a very respectable 6.5 sacks and Robert Geathers has 7. Now ask yourself if Pollack were still manning the Joker role what might he have added? Whatever your answer might be it's likely to be larger than zero...which is what the Bengals are getting from that spot since he was injured.

Frankly, nobody likes watching a meltdown of epic proportions, but it's just as true that many of you who are complaining about the product currently on the field are guilty of ignoring the injuries the Bengals have suffered, and are still adjusting to. Don't you realize that the product your judging isn't the one that anyone wanted to see on the field? So excuse me when I laugh at all of the mouthy proclamations stating..."No more excuses."

They're not excuses. They're explanations, and if you were really watching what was happening to this team you wouldn't bother asking the questions.

[cover2]

"Thortons sack"! There was nothing wrong with it. The problem is that was the only tackle he made all day?

It was also a coverage sack......one of the rare and few. I think its time for Mr. Thorton to move on.

[Bengalhead]

Personally, I don't like the idea that this defense is built around one player. If so and the player is injured, does the defense fold like a house of cards? (That's meant to be a rhetorical question but, based on the D's play you could say they did fold!) I'd rather the players just do their job. I would think that the pass rush would be better with Pollack but, unfortunately, he hasn't been able to be on the field consistently enough to really make much of a difference.

Whether you like the idea or not doesn't matter very much. The simple fact of is all defenses are built around player strengths, and David Pollack is first and foremost a pass rusher...the very thing you claim the Bengals are lacking.

In addition, until recently the Bengals have also been without Pollack's backup, Robert Jeanty, a player who can fill the position but doesn't provide the same pass rush. Now factor in the other injuries at LB, and there have been quite a few, and you get the massive shuffling that has resulted, and the inexperienced players that were forced to play earlier than intended.

As it stands, Justin Smith has a very respectable 6.5 sacks and Robert Geathers has 7. Now ask yourself if Pollack were still manning the Joker role what might he have added? Whatever your answer might be it's likely to be larger than zero...which is what the Bengals are getting from that spot since he was injured.

Frankly, nobody likes watching a meltdown of epic proportions, but it's just as true that many of you who are complaining about the product currently on the field are guilty of ignoring the injuries the Bengals have suffered, and are still adjusting to. Don't you realize that the product your judging isn't the one that anyone wanted to see on the field? So excuse me when I laugh at all of the mouthy proclamations stating..."No more excuses."

They're not excuses. They're explanations, and if you were really watching what was happening to this team you wouldn't bother asking the questions.

You know what Hair, the more I read more posts, the more I realize that is seems that you don't like anybody that disagrees with you. It is ok to criticize this team. I love them as much as you do. But I'm not happy with their performance and-at some point, there has to be some accountability SOMEWHERE. You seem to have a problem whenever a poster says something that is not in line with your opinions. Come on man! Wouldn't you agree that sometimes there is more than one idea that is correct at the same time? I've read a lot of posts on here and I'll be the first one to agree with you that there are some uneducated and silly posts. But not all of them. Sometimes there are intelligent and thought out responses that seem to get ridiculed because they are not the popular opinion.

I respect your tenure here on this board. I just wish that you'd be a little more open to others viewpoints that aren't the same as yours.

[Jonboat]

Personally, I don't like the idea that this defense is built around one player. If so and the player is injured, does the defense fold like a house of cards? (That's meant to be a rhetorical question but, based on the D's play you could say they did fold!) I'd rather the players just do their job. I would think that the pass rush would be better with Pollack but, unfortunately, he hasn't been able to be on the field consistently enough to really make much of a difference.

Whether you like the idea or not doesn't matter very much. The simple fact of is all defenses are built around player strengths, and David Pollack is first and foremost a pass rusher...the very thing you claim the Bengals are lacking.

In addition, until recently the Bengals have also been without Pollack's backup, Robert Jeanty, a player who can fill the position but doesn't provide the same pass rush. Now factor in the other injuries at LB, and there have been quite a few, and you get the massive shuffling that has resulted, and the inexperienced players that were forced to play earlier than intended.

As it stands, Justin Smith has a very respectable 6.5 sacks and Robert Geathers has 7. Now ask yourself if Pollack were still manning the Joker role what might he have added? Whatever your answer might be it's likely to be larger than zero...which is what the Bengals are getting from that spot since he was injured.

Frankly, nobody likes watching a meltdown of epic proportions, but it's just as true that many of you who are complaining about the product currently on the field are guilty of ignoring the injuries the Bengals have suffered, and are still adjusting to. Don't you realize that the product your judging isn't the one that anyone wanted to see on the field? So excuse me when I laugh at all of the mouthy proclamations stating..."No more excuses."

They're not excuses. They're explanations, and if you were really watching what was happening to this team you wouldn't bother asking the questions.

I couldn't agree more the injuries/suspensions we've had have killed this team that's not making excuses it's a fact. In the first 5 weeks or so our guys was dropping like flys & it seems they have been significant injuries. Seeing as how our LB corps. has been hit esp hard they've done a decent job except for a couple games they also have taken a big toll on the O-line which is IMO the only reason this Off hasn't been as explosive as last year, we seen that last week give Palmer time & he can still get the job done.Think of it like this if the Ravens lost virtually all their LBs + Safety Ed Reed would they be leading the Div.? Would their Def scare anyone? Hell no!! When you lose as many starters as we have at some point it ceases to be an excuse & becomes a fact.

Back to the topic, I think they are really missing Odell he was, whether you want to see or not, a big part of last years success. He was a playmaker & brought alot of fire, attitude to this Defense. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that he stays out of trouble & they bring him back !!!

[fattyjay]

I agree with the thought that they miss Odell more than they are willing to admit, but at some point doesn't someone else need to step up and provide that "fire" that they are missing? The playmaking aspect is a little harder to come by, but their are enough veterans on this defense that the excuse of not having an emotional leader on that side of the ball is just getting old. It seems to me that the biggest factor besides the injuries at LB that are affecting this defense could be age. BRob, Thorton, Fat Sam, Toast James, Dex, and Delta all seem to be hitting the wall.

[HairOnFire]

You know what Hair, the more I read more posts, the more I realize that is seems that you don't like anybody that disagrees with you. It is ok to criticize this team. I love them as much as you do. But I'm not happy with their performance and-at some point, there has to be some accountability SOMEWHERE. You seem to have a problem whenever a poster says something that is not in line with your opinions. Come on man! Wouldn't you agree that sometimes there is more than one idea that is correct at the same time?

First, what makes you think that I don't like you as much as the next guy? The inconvenient truth of the matter is that I neither like or dislike you, and only respond to the written opinions you've put forward. I hesitate to put things this cold, but every poster here is nothing more to me than a collection of words and ideas.

And on that score, I usually do have respect for the other guys point of view, but if I don't agree with it I'm going to challenge them to back it up. I'm going to demand that they take things beyond pure speculation and see if their rants and opinions actually fit with known facts.

Can more than one opinion be correct at the same time? Well, probably not.

We've repeatedly knocked heads over the issue of whether this team has any playmakers on defense, and in response I've pointed out that this team has produced a remarkable amount of turnovers each season...far too many for it to be considered a fluke. I've also pointed to a heavily criticized pass rush that the Bengal coaches willingly admit is often held back by the containment demands of their own scheme. The Bengals have for many different reasons rarely featured a jailbreak defense. Last, I've pointed to the impact of this seasons injuries, and the perhaps permanent loss of last seasons 1st round pick. I've asked, no....I've flat out demanded that you consider what the loss of this teams designated pass rusher might mean to a pass rush that you find inadequate. What's unfair about that?

All of the above points seem relevant to me, and despite your complaint I don't feel compelled to withdraw them in favor of lobs. So don't muddy the water here because this isn't about me having a lack of respect for your opinion simply because it's different than mine. It's a matter of you failing to put forward an argument that goes deeper than the surface.

No disrespect intended.

[Jonboat]

I agree with the thought that they miss Odell more than they are willing to admit, but at some point doesn't someone else need to step up and provide that "fire" that they are missing? The playmaking aspect is a little harder to come by, but their are enough veterans on this defense that the excuse of not having an emotional leader on that side of the ball is just getting old. It seems to me that the biggest factor besides the injuries at LB that are affecting this defense could be age. BRob, Thorton, Fat Sam, Toast James, Dex, and Delta all seem to be hitting the wall.

While Odell did bring alot of fire I think miss the big plays he made more. Odell made big plays. Good point about the age . I still can't understand why Tory is still starting ?