Where was the secondary?

[agreen_112]

Deltha and James both looked like crap. Dexter and Madieu have helped to stop the run, but are doing nothing about helping out over the top. Landon Johnson in the flats.... Looked like a kid playing in peewee. I guess most of this had to do with Vick b/c he was just playing awesome, but we could've done a better job.

What the hell was Deltha thinking when he gave that TD up to #33 on the flat route?

[schweinhart]

Give a QB as much time as Vick had to throw and any secondary starts to crack. The Bengals guessed that Vick would eff up and he just didn't. The loss had more to do with how Vick played than the Bengals secondary.

[Tasher]

Give a QB as much time as Vick had to throw and any secondary starts to crack. The Bengals guessed that Vick would eff up and he just didn't. The loss had more to do with how Vick played than the Bengals secondary.

+1

This was a huge problem all day, as soon as Vick comes out of the pocket and receivers start to adjust routes and improvise, the secondary is dead. No secondary can cover that long.

[schweinhart]

Damned if they did and damned if they didn't, I guess. If the Bengals play the Falcons again w/ Vick as QB, maybe next time they just say the heck with it and try to rush him out of the pocket. Try to get their shots at him with him on the run and try to get him more hopped on throwing on the run.

But speaking of where was, it was good to see Big Shaun Smith get some air time love. When he got held and got enough penetration to still trip up Dunn in the backfield, Aikman actually said, "You don't see defensive tackles make better tackles than that." I'd really like to see Big Sam and Shaun side by side next week just to punish the interior of the Ratbirds O-line.

[membengal]

+2.

At some point, it occurs to me, you just have to tip your cap to a great performance by an individual. They made Vick beat them with his arm, and he did. It wasn't like guys were running wide open in general, he fit some balls into some tight spots. He was pretty damn good yesterday.

I bet Carolina fans felt the same way when CP completed that damn near impossible 32 yarder to a covered CJ with the game on the line last week...

[schweinhart]

I bet Carolina fans felt the same way when CP completed that damn near impossible 32 yarder to a covered CJ with the game on the line last week...

And I'd bet Dirty Bird fans were in disbelief when Chad got a couple of his patented miracles catches yesterday.

[bengalskyspy]

The defensive gameplan was naive. Our guys kept Vick in front of them, yes, gave him all day to find an open receiver. They refused to try to tackle him like a bunch 4th graders. I blame this one on the coaches, both Bres and Marvin. Period.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

The defensive gameplan was naive. Our guys kept Vick in front of them, yes, gave him all day to find an open receiver. They refused to try to tackle him like a bunch 4th graders. I blame this one on the coaches, both Bres and Marvin. Period.

Sure was. Teams that beat him do a few things: 1) keep him in the pocket, 2) Don't let him hit Crumpler, 3) Make him hit receivers in stride WHILE THEY RUN DOWNFIELD, but 4) don't let him throw a long bomb with a lot of arc.

How to do that? Let the receivers behind the corners, but WITH SAFETY HELP. Keeping the receivers in front of the corners is actually the wrong thing to do. Treat Crumpler like the good receiver he is and keep a DB on him. Have LBs spread Vick laterally but don't run at him.

Sound familiar? That's pretty much standard cover 2. And you wonder why Tampa usually historically owned him. This year TB lost, but still only gave up 14 points.

What did the Bengals do? For the most part, let him hit receivers in the middle of the field who were facing him, providing big targets that his errant arm could hit.

The winning plan against Vick is to let him have his 5-yard runs, and dare him to fit throws in tough places.

[derekshank]

The defensive gameplan was naive. Our guys kept Vick in front of them, yes, gave him all day to find an open receiver. They refused to try to tackle him like a bunch 4th graders. I blame this one on the coaches, both Bres and Marvin. Period.

Sure was. Teams that beat him do a few things: 1) keep him in the pocket, 2) Don't let him hit Crumpler, 3) Make him hit receivers in stride WHILE RUNNING DOWNFIELD, but 4) don't let him throw a long bomb with a lot of arc.

How to do that? Let the receivers behind the corners, but WITH SAFETY HELP. Treat Crumpler like the good receiver he is and keep a DB on him. Have LBs spread Vick laterally.

Sound familiar? That's pretty much standard cover 2. And you wonder why Tampa usually historically owned him. This year TB lost, but still only gave up 14 points.

What did the Bengals do? For the most part, let him hit receivers in the middle of the field who were facing him, providing big targets that his errant arm could hit.

The winning plan against Vick is to let him have his 5-yard runs, and dare him to fit throws in tough places.

So... we were supposed to change our defensive scheme for one game? Look... I agree with you that a Cover-2 is probably the best way to deal with Vick... but with Dexter not at 100%, I don't want to give KK the responsibility that a Cover-2 safety requires.

I didn't think the game plan was all that bad considering the talent we had available to us... and I also find it funny that you refer to Vick's arm as "errant." Did you watch the game? His accuracy was pretty damn impressive. He doesn't historically have a great completion %... but he certainly shows the ability to thread the needle when he needs to... and has completed more than 65% of his passes in the past 2 weeks. "errant" arms don't do that.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

The defensive gameplan was naive. Our guys kept Vick in front of them, yes, gave him all day to find an open receiver. They refused to try to tackle him like a bunch 4th graders. I blame this one on the coaches, both Bres and Marvin. Period.

Sure was. Teams that beat him do a few things: 1) keep him in the pocket, 2) Don't let him hit Crumpler, 3) Make him hit receivers in stride WHILE RUNNING DOWNFIELD, but 4) don't let him throw a long bomb with a lot of arc.

How to do that? Let the receivers behind the corners, but WITH SAFETY HELP. Treat Crumpler like the good receiver he is and keep a DB on him. Have LBs spread Vick laterally.

Sound familiar? That's pretty much standard cover 2. And you wonder why Tampa usually historically owned him. This year TB lost, but still only gave up 14 points.

What did the Bengals do? For the most part, let him hit receivers in the middle of the field who were facing him, providing big targets that his errant arm could hit.

The winning plan against Vick is to let him have his 5-yard runs, and dare him to fit throws in tough places.

So... we were supposed to change our defensive scheme for one game? Look... I agree with you that a Cover-2 is probably the best way to deal with Vick... but with Dexter not at 100%, I don't want to give KK the responsibility that a Cover-2 safety requires.

I didn't think the game plan was all that bad considering the talent we had available to us... and I also find it funny that you refer to Vick's arm as "errant." Did you watch the game? His accuracy was pretty damn impressive. He doesn't historically have a great completion %... but he certainly shows the ability to thread the needle when he needs to... and has completed more than 65% of his passes in the past 2 weeks. "errant" arms don't do that.

Depends if you want to win. The fact is that two games in a row, Vick faced defenses that tried to keep the receivers in front of the DBs, and he had the two best games of his career. The Bengals have cover-2 in their plan, I've seen them play it. And there was enough pressure on the safeties as it was yesterday trying to help out the corners who were getting toasted thanks to the lack of a pass rush.

I did watch the game. His accuracy was high because he had easy throws to make that any QB in the league could have made, which was in fact my point - that he had easy targets facing him showing him the numbers on their jerseys. I didn't see many throws that he had to make over a corner and in front of a safety down the sideline, which is what cover-2 forces as often as not. As for Vick's accuracy...let's look at his career numbers, which ain't so good at 55%. Also, look at film on him - he's never been the guy who fits balls in tight spots. He's never learned technique for precision routes. He knows how to hit open guys in the numbers, throw a deep ball, and do the semi-intentional underthrow. That's about it. There's no reason a guy like that should light up your D.

So you're right about that - the Bengals' scheme took a terrible passer and made him into a very accurate QB. I'm not contesting that at all. I'm saying that a decent defensive scheme that forces Vick to play to his weaknesses doesn't allow him to do that. Or you can do what Pittsburgh and Cincinnati did and let him destroy you. And I'm not prepared to believe that 2 weeks ago, Vick magically learned how to be an NFL passer.

Looking at this in simple terms, Vick is a baaaaad pocket passer. Not to quote numbers, but a lifetime rating of 76 ain't good. If your D gives a QB like that a rating of 140 for a game (!), apparantly the second-best of his career, you're doing something wrong schematically. Because while the Bengals are thin in some places, lots of teams with worse talent force Vick into mistakes, which the Bengals didn't do.