chrishcovga Posted March 28, 2004 Report Share Posted March 28, 2004 Everything sounds good Joisey except for the Kicker part.--We can have very good players,and pay them at that level and win with.But having elite players at several positions usually strap our own salary cap.--However the one position I think you have to have an elite player at is your Kicking position.When you have a kicker that is just about automatic, defenses have to take more chances because you're always a threat to score. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierCat Posted March 28, 2004 Report Share Posted March 28, 2004 Oh, I don't think they made a mistake paying Graham; I think they had to do it and that it was a good move. However, according to what his sister has said on the board, Shayne offered to re-sign for a minimum salary deal, but wanted a $1 million bonus, before the start of FA. And the Bengals turned him down. They made the (IMHO incredibly stupid) bet that no one would be interested in a kicker Bengal fans nicknamed "Mr. Automatic"!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals44 Posted March 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2004 Joisey/Chris... You guys both obviously have thought your opinions through very well and I respect anyone's opinion that is well informed... Sometimes people just do not agree on subjects and that's perfectly fine...I can understand the frustrations in not getting Vincent and/or Sapp... I think either would've helped us as well at the right price... I just believe that Vincent never really wanted to come here - he obviously wanted to go to Carolina and when that did not happen he opted for the money in Buffalo... This is probably where we would disagree - it seems that some think we should have "overspent" to get him and I can simply never agree w/ that thought... He is a quality player, but headed for the downside of his career and paying too much means you will be forced to go w/ a less than average player or two elsewhere, rather than maintaining quality and striving for depth across the board... As far as Sapp, well once again I cannot believe a damn thing that comes out of his mouth, so I opt to believe that we decided he was not worth $36M for 7-years w/ a huge signing bonus... If we could have gotten him at the 4-year $4M area as had been reported, I could understand that much more, although we still would not have been able to sign Beckett or Bobby Williams if we did so, thus leaving two gapping holes that we would've been forced to address in the draft or w/ less than average FA's... As far as 7-years, well his production has already began to fall, so I cannot imagine he will be much more than a shell of his former self in 2010-11...I suppose overall it's simply a philosophical disagreement here... I concur that we appeared to "drag our feet" at times, but we really do not know exactly what was happening behind closed doors. I choose to believe that we did what we could do to sign a few veterans that would've helped, but refused to "overpay" and I have to agree w/ that... If we ever "overpay" someone (and I hope don't), I would hope that he is in the prime of his career and not a veteran who is on the backside of his playing days...Regardless, discussion and a variety of opinions is usually a healthy thing...Let's hope that we get a lucky in the draft and at least there is good depth their at both DT and DB... I can't really see it happened, but if Wilfolk is somehow available, we better jump all over that... If we end up w/ 3 picks in the third, I can see trading one to move up 4 or five slots to get him...Note To Bengalsfansince68 - Thanks for the thoughts, we appear to be on the same page w/ this one... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierCat Posted March 28, 2004 Report Share Posted March 28, 2004 44 -- I don't think we're that far apart. Personally, I never thought very highly of either Vincent or Taylor; I'm more disgusted with the fact that they didn't make the slightest attempt to go after a Winfield or a Plummer. That tells me their focus was primarily money, not improving the position. As for Sapp, I said from the beginning that I would be stunned if he signed here -- but that said, his deal would not have broken the bank (I've gone though that elsewhere). Would it have prevented us from resigning Beckett or signing Williams. Hard to say without seeing the numbers, but the answer would clearly be "no" had the Bengals moved more aggressively (by restructuring Kitna for instance) to clear cap space in Jan & Feb.As for overpaying, I agree with you: I would much rather overpay for someone like Plummer than someone like Vincent. Regarding the draft, right now I'm leaning toward the concept of abandoning the CB position to its fate this year. Go with our current lineup -- and maybe a "sleeper" candidate late in the draft -- but spend our draft on the defensive line. Get Udeze or Smith for DE in round one (which might mean jumping up a spot or three) and go for best DT in round 2 (several should be left, like Lavalis & Olshansky). And find another vet DT, like Norman Hand or Daryl Gardener (or both). In short, build as wicked a d-line as possible to stuff the run and take pressure off the secondary. We'll see what the Bengals think in a few weeks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals44 Posted March 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2004 Agreed - it would appear that we are not far off in our thought process afterall.....and I'll say that if the first and second rd. were to fall as you have stated above I would be very satisfied... I would like to see Jake Peavy still there is the third, but I think that is a long shot, but we can always hope... I can't wait for the draft, it's like Christmas day to me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevnz Posted March 28, 2004 Report Share Posted March 28, 2004 44 -- I don't think we're that far apart. Personally, I never thought very highly of either Vincent or Taylor; I'm more disgusted with the fact that they didn't make the slightest attempt to go after a Winfield or a Plummer. That tells me their focus was primarily money, not improving the position. ... Well, there is no way the Bengals could have landed Winfield, the Viking had 33million in cap space, he would have been a Viking no matter what the team did, hell even NY couldn't land him...I do agree about being a little miffed that they didn't pursue Plummer though....Of course both have flaws in their game and were overpayed, I mean come on, Winfield only has what 5 career picks? But there is no reason to overpay someone, especially at the corner. Yeah, they could have made a run at one of those two, or even Shawn Springs(even though he hasn't been healthy in like 3 years) but how many players would have to be let go? Or not signed in a year or two when the contracts start to really inflate? The smartest thing the Bengals did this offseason was to not overpay one of those guys....This is a team game.Also, I'd agree with you about drafting heaps of d-line players....good d-lines make average secondarys look good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbarian Posted March 29, 2004 Report Share Posted March 29, 2004 I'm sorry, but I have to rate this offseason Free Agent signing as a total disaster.The Bungles so far have signed 2 safeties that play the same position, signed an undersized Middle Linebacker, and signed all the unsignificants back.Now, let's talk about what didn't happen:The Bungles didn't sign any high-priced Cornerback (Bailey, Vincent, or Taylor), didn't sign a Defensive Tackle (run stuffer), and forgot to sign a Offensive Guard.On top of that, they still have Dillon who's a disease, have a starting cornerback that's one year away from an almost fatal gunshot wound (what's even worse is that they released Toast for reassurance!!!), and the Bungles have a rookie QB starting who's greener than Ireland.I think the 1st step is that they "give" Corey to the Raiders for a 3rd rounder. AT LEAST GET SOMETHING FOR HIM!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevnz Posted March 29, 2004 Report Share Posted March 29, 2004 I'm sorry, but I have to rate this offseason Free Agent signing as a total disaster.The Bungles so far have signed 2 safeties that play the same position, signed an undersized Middle Linebacker, and signed all the unsignificants back.Now, let's talk about what didn't happen:The Bungles didn't sign any high-priced Cornerback (Bailey, Vincent, or Taylor), didn't sign a Defensive Tackle (run stuffer), and forgot to sign a Offensive Guard.On top of that, they still have Dillon who's a disease, have a starting cornerback that's one year away from an almost fatal gunshot wound (what's even worse is that they released Toast for reassurance!!!), and the Bungles have a rookie QB starting who's greener than Ireland.I think the 1st step is that they "give" Corey to the Raiders for a 3rd rounder. AT LEAST GET SOMETHING FOR HIM!!!! Enough of this "Bungles" bulls**t....I'm really sick of it.Didn't sign a guard? Somebody better tell Bobbie Williams that he didn't really get signed.don't worry about Dillon until training camp. As for DT, that will be addressed in the draft and the player will be better than anybody they could have signed this offseason...The gunshot wound wasn't even close to being fatal....Everybody knew that at some point Carson was gonna start and that whenever that was he'd be green....He has enough playmakers around him to ease him into the role..THE BENGALS HAVEN'T EVEN BEEN OFFERED A 3rd ROUNDER FOR DILLON. The team will do what's best for the team, not something to appease the fan base....Cause they know winning will appease the fan base more than whatever they do with dillon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbarian Posted March 29, 2004 Report Share Posted March 29, 2004 THE BENGALS HAVEN'T EVEN BEEN OFFERED A 3rd ROUNDER FOR DILLON. The team will do what's best for the team, not something to appease the fan base....Cause they know winning will appease the fan base more than whatever they do with dillon. How do you know this??? You must work for Mike Brown AND Al Davis.My bad on the Guard signing...but wasn't Williams RIDING THE PINE last year??? Yet, another typical Mikey signing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevnz Posted March 29, 2004 Report Share Posted March 29, 2004 How do you know this??? You must work for Mike Brown AND Al Davis.My bad on the Guard signing...but wasn't Williams RIDING THE PINE last year??? Yet, another typical Mikey signing. Actually, Williams was behind a probowl guard and when he finally got to start he did very well....and he was pursued by 5 teams and has potential to be a pro bowl guard himself....this was a Marvin signing.How do you know Mikey was offered a 3rd? Everything I've read from reliable news outlets say that they haven't even been offered a 4th rounder for Dillon, and no conditional pick either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirkendall Posted March 29, 2004 Report Share Posted March 29, 2004 I have been as critical of our FA period as anyone, but I'm not willing to call this a disaster. I'd say a disappointment, but with all things we've had to deal with for the past 13 years, our expectations are going to be out of control; well they kind of are already. I've been disappointed and I shouldn't be. It's like saying to a baby after taking his first step to run only to find out his second step bruised his ego by falling and starts crying. Expecting him to run expectedly turns into a disappointment. Knowing he can walk is preparation for years to come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black'n'Orange Posted March 29, 2004 Report Share Posted March 29, 2004 Quote: The distance is nothing; it is only the first step that is difficult. Author: Mme. Du Deffand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals44 Posted March 30, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2004 I have been as critical of our FA period as anyone, but I'm not willing to call this a disaster. I'd say a disappointment. I still believe the people that are disappointed are so because we did not sign a "big-name" player and the media has played that up on top of it, due to our past... That's what those sorts do though (the media) - the play to the thoughts of the masses, the people not in the know... I realize that we have appeared to drag our feet at times, but then again, those are the media reports we hear... Quite frankly, if you think about both free-agents that have most up in arms (Vincent and Sapp), you examine two players that were once great and are most definately slowing down. At the right price either would have helped our cause, but the price was not right and so it did not happen - and that is where Marvin understands... The truth is that every player (w/ the exception of Braham) we signed are just coming into the prime, are at a high-quality price and are not clubhouse problems... I just don't think everyone is looking at the "long-term" plan...! How in the hell can we sign a few quality middle-tier free-agents year after year if we sign old players to monster contracts? Well, quite simply we cannot... You have to follow a plan and if the older veterans do not fit that plan financially, you move on...A great franchise is built via the draft and (these days) middle-tier up-and-comer FA's... When is the last time Bill Belichick overpaid a player? He simply doesn’t do it; instead he cuts pro-bowlers like Lawyer Milloy and Ty Law (that will happen soon) because they out price his plan…This is Marvin’s plan – go back and look at all of our off-season moves and see if they do not fit into, not only this year, but his plans 2-3 years from now… It’s not that difficult to see…...of course that's just my opinion... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsfan2 Posted March 30, 2004 Report Share Posted March 30, 2004 I have been as critical of our FA period as anyone, but I'm not willing to call this a disaster. I'd say a disappointment.I still believe the people that are disappointed are so because we did not sign a "big-name" player and the media has played that up on top of it, due to our past... That's what those sorts do though (the media) - the play to the thoughts of the masses, the people not in the know... I realize that we have appeared to drag our feet at times, but then again, those are the media reports we hear... Can't speak for the other guys, but from their posts on other threads, I don't think they were as much disturbed that we didn't sign a " name " player as they were about the way the team dealt with the players that were brought in no matter who it was. I do know that most of us were skeptical about some of the guys that were brought in because of their age or attitude or both. I also didn't see anybody suggest that we should have been the team to sign 33 year old players to 6 and 7 year deals with guaranteed money up front. As I said, I think we were reactive and indecisive in our dealings with the players agents. It sent mixed signals and led to confusion on their part. Joisey on the other hand thinks our method of negotiating was intentional. He makes good points and while I admit that its just as likely that he's right, I can't decide if I'd rather believe that we were frugal or inept. The question that begs to be asked is why did we bring these guys in without first having a good idea that we would be able to sign them. My disappointment is that last year we acted decisively and aggresively in signing the players we wanted, and this year we didn't. To me, the players invovled are beside the point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UCANTBEATOURJOHNSONS Posted March 30, 2004 Report Share Posted March 30, 2004 There's a big reason we haven't picked up a Defensive Tackle or a Corner in free agency. Why pay them when there are BETTER GUYS IN THE DRAFT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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