derekshank Posted August 12, 2006 Report Share Posted August 12, 2006 http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insider/col...%26id%3d2542482I was disappointed that Palmer wasn’t mentioned in the section of the article available to the public. If anyone has the insider, maybe they could let us know how Palmer matches up.I tend to doubt how accurate this formula really is when Palmer and Manning both don’t crack the top 5… but it is still interesting that Roethlisberger is being called out for once.When you have a good defense and a great running game, there aren't a whole lot of things a QB can do to lose the game. It appears that Ben knows this better than anyone.I am one that happens to think Ben is a pretty good QB. He is hard as hell to tackle, and he throws a very accurate pass, and both of these attributes have served him well. But having watched my fair share of his games, I think he gets away with more that any other QB I've seen at the pro level. Farve does the same stuff, but gets picked off every time.Example: In the Super Bowl he just threw a ball up for grabs while on the run. Hines Ward ran after it and brought it down around the 3 yard line. Hines reacted to the ball better than the defenders... but that didn't make it a good decision. Ben was lucky, because it should have been an INT. He scrambles a lot, and he consistently throws the ball across his body. One of the first no-no's of passing in the NFL. He has gotten away with that several times against the Bengals alone.I would think it would catch up to him eventually. I've heard talk that they are going to give him more control of the offense this season. I personally think that this would bode well for the Bengals. If Ben really takes over this offense, with Bettis and Randle El gone, they shouldn’t be too scary anymore. Ben's bad decisions don't catch up with him when he only throws the ball 15 times a game... but when he has to throw the ball a lot, he throws picks. Here's to hoping a season with the Steelers in the + column in the turnover battle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kazkal Posted August 12, 2006 Report Share Posted August 12, 2006 Hehe I saw that on stillers.com I'm just happy carsons not in buttom 5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengalboomer7 Posted August 12, 2006 Report Share Posted August 12, 2006 They only do both extremes, top five and bottom five, and Carson isn't mentioned at all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjakq27 Posted August 12, 2006 Report Share Posted August 12, 2006 Ben has certainly lived the charmed life since the day he was drafted. I hardly believe that he would be quite the QB had he gone to SD or Cleveland. Maybe at the NY Giants since they have a decent defense though.He landed in exactly the right place at the right time. But you can't take the trophy away from him. He will always have that whether he earned it or deserved it for his play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmyBengal Posted August 12, 2006 Report Share Posted August 12, 2006 Made this argument a month ago about how Ben would do without the defense he has around him in Pittsburgh. That said, I wouldn't bash the guy as a QB, but I wouldn't raise him up on anything resembling a pedestal either, regardless of any trophy...WHODEY!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kazkal Posted August 12, 2006 Report Share Posted August 12, 2006 Well he wants the chin to open up the offense =) my fingers are crossed for him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC_Bengals_Fan Posted August 13, 2006 Report Share Posted August 13, 2006 Made this argument a month ago about how Ben would do without the defense he has around him in Pittsburgh. That said, I wouldn't bash the guy as a QB, but I wouldn't raise him up on anything resembling a pedestal either, regardless of any trophy...WHODEY!!!I'll bash him. They win despite the fact that he's not that good, because:*He has a running game that has him pretty much never having to win a game with his arm. That means no threading deep balls into double coverage. That means having the luxury to throw when the defense has 8 in the box*He has a defense that provides the same. He never has to go into pass mode in the 4th quarter.*They win when he throws 12 times/game.*He has an offensive line that gives him *years* to throw. That'll make a lot of guys look good.*He had good receivers in Ward and Randle El, and now a pretty damned good TE too.What more evidence do you need than the fact that they won the Super Bolw despite getting a 20-something QB rating from him? If your team wins the SB when you have your worst game possible, then you aren't particularly important to that team. Period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmyBengal Posted August 13, 2006 Report Share Posted August 13, 2006 Regardless, he's not a bad QB and most everyone had him as a 1st rounder. Yes, he just happened to go into the perfect situation, but that can't be held against him. Just because a running back starts for a Super Bowl winner only runs for 800 yards on the season doesn't make him a bad RB. He may not be a great RB, but he can't be labeled as a bad one. Same goes for Rottenfurburger, he may not be the best, but he's by no means a bad QB. That's just hatred talking. Hatred I understand, but hatred nonetheless...WHODEY !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjakq27 Posted August 13, 2006 Report Share Posted August 13, 2006 Made this argument a month ago about how Ben would do without the defense he has around him in Pittsburgh. That said, I wouldn't bash the guy as a QB, but I wouldn't raise him up on anything resembling a pedestal either, regardless of any trophy...WHODEY!!!I'll bash him. They win despite the fact that he's not that good, because:*He has a running game that has him pretty much never having to win a game with his arm. That means no threading deep balls into double coverage. That means having the luxury to throw when the defense has 8 in the box*He has a defense that provides the same. He never has to go into pass mode in the 4th quarter.*They win when he throws 12 times/game.*He has an offensive line that gives him *years* to throw. That'll make a lot of guys look good.*He had good receivers in Ward and Randle El, and now a pretty damned good TE too.What more evidence do you need than the fact that they won the Super Bolw despite getting a 20-something QB rating from him? If your team wins the SB when you have your worst game possible, then you aren't particularly important to that team. Period. I agree with everything you say yet overall he has played better against us than Palmer has played against his team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmyBengal Posted August 13, 2006 Report Share Posted August 13, 2006 And that probably has more to do with each teams defense !!!WHODEY !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC_Bengals_Fan Posted August 13, 2006 Report Share Posted August 13, 2006 Regardless, he's not a bad QB and most everyone had him as a 1st rounder. Yes, he just happened to go into the perfect situation, but that can't be held against him. Just because a running back starts for a Super Bowl winner only runs for 800 yards on the season doesn't make him a bad RB. He may not be a great RB, but he can't be labeled as a bad one. Same goes for Rottenfurburger, he may not be the best, but he's by no means a bad QB. That's just hatred talking. Hatred I understand, but hatred nonetheless...WHODEY !!!What I said was that the success he's enjoyed doesn't depend on his own skill. It depends on his RBs, defense, OL, and receivers. He's a replaceable part - I truly think most any decent QB would thrive there. You need a guy who can sit back there and hit open targets in the chest, and he has ample time to do it. He doesn't make tough reads. He doesn't make really tough throws. He doesn't get creative. Basically, he just has to not f**k up too bad. Hell, in the SB he couldn't f**k up badly enough, and not for lack of trying.The situation is sort of like RBs in Denver. How many low-round draft picks need to have success there before people understand it's the system? Davis, Gary, Williams, Portis, Bell, Droughns, etc. Or StL QBs. I think it was similar for the steelers the last two years.Does that mean he's bad? You can't prove it one way or the other since he hasn't been on a mediocre team. We'll see what happens when he is. Until then, I don't give him credit for what success he's gotten. Might as well credit the team janitor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derekshank Posted August 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2006 Made this argument a month ago about how Ben would do without the defense he has around him in Pittsburgh. That said, I wouldn't bash the guy as a QB, but I wouldn't raise him up on anything resembling a pedestal either, regardless of any trophy...WHODEY!!!I'll bash him. They win despite the fact that he's not that good, because:*He has a running game that has him pretty much never having to win a game with his arm. That means no threading deep balls into double coverage. That means having the luxury to throw when the defense has 8 in the box*He has a defense that provides the same. He never has to go into pass mode in the 4th quarter.*They win when he throws 12 times/game.*He has an offensive line that gives him *years* to throw. That'll make a lot of guys look good.*He had good receivers in Ward and Randle El, and now a pretty damned good TE too.What more evidence do you need than the fact that they won the Super Bolw despite getting a 20-something QB rating from him? If your team wins the SB when you have your worst game possible, then you aren't particularly important to that team. Period. I agree with everything you say yet overall he has played better against us than Palmer has played against his team.That's true if you are sinply considering wins and losses... but this entire argument is based on the premise that Pittsburgh wins despite Ben's play, not because of it.In the 4 games they've played against each other (I had to discount the playoff game since Palmer played only 2 plays) their numbers are amazingly similar. Ben has 791 yards with 7 TD's and 4 INT'sPalmer has 783 yards with 6 TD's and 5 INT'sBen's numbers are only slightly better... and when you consider the quality of the defenses that each player is playing against, I find it difficult to assume that Ben has played outright better than Palmer in those 4 games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stilldiesel Posted August 13, 2006 Report Share Posted August 13, 2006 Come on DC. The Steelers NEVER won the big game before Big Ben. Ben improvises and is as acurate a passer on the run as anyone. Remember, he was the youngest QB ever to win a SB and he admitted afterward he was overwhelmed in the SB and played like crap.However, how about the Indy and Denver playoff games. The Steelers built a lead on the road against two good team without a running game because of Ben. The Steelers' running game sucked in the 1st half of both of those games. If you think Kordell Stewart or Neil O'Donnell would have won those games in Indy or Denver you are high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalBillyBob Posted August 16, 2006 Report Share Posted August 16, 2006 their numbers are amazingly similar. You convienently left out QB rating and comp%, Roethlisberger is far ahead in those categories. Palmer really struggled against that D until the 2nd game last yr. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derekshank Posted August 16, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2006 their numbers are amazingly similar. You convienently left out QB rating and comp%, Roethlisberger is far ahead in those categories. Palmer really struggled against that D until the 2nd game last yr.I left a rather long post before the site shut down that you never responded to. It mentioned the massive difference in the defenses... one being one of the the best pass rushing D's in the league, and the other being the worst. If Palmer had as long in the pocket as Ben did in those games, the numbers would not have been close. Palmer would have demolished him. Also, every single defense keys in on the Pittsburgh running game, not Roethlisberger. However defenses key in against Palmer.I also mentioned that not even a single national analyst I can find believes Ben is better than Palmer, and yet you are arguing with me. I can't understand this unless you are a troll. Explain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShulaSteakhouse Posted August 17, 2006 Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 Wow another thread about the Steelers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirkendall Posted August 17, 2006 Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 Wow another thread about the Steelers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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