You Be the GM

[rwalling]

So John Abraham has the franchise tag. So what. What could the Bengals offer to get this man-ster on their defense?

1) Their second round pick?

2) K-Wash(out) and a lower pick?

3) Swapping our first for their second? (and still getting the safety we want)

If we could get him at a reasonable cost and extend him, he immediately makes this a successful offseason and immediately impacts our defense's attitude and improves the players around him.

Thoughts?

[bengalboomer7]

NO, Unless he's already signed the tender, I believe we have to give up two first round picks. NOOO!

No

No

No

[derekshank]

It depends what the Jets are looking for. They will most likely want draft picks more than a back-up RB- sorry hair. I doubt we get Abraham. It's more our style to go with someone like Darren Howard. Potentially very good production, for a bargain basement price because of the injury risk.

[HoosierCat]

First thing to consider is that Abraham's biggest beef is not having a long-term deal. And since he can't be traded unless he signs the tender, he has an effective veto over any deal. So any team wanting him is going to have to give him that long-term contract. Anyone here think the Bengals are going to agree to a deal averaging 6, 7, 8 million a year? And that in addition to giving up draft picks and/or current players?

Sorry, but I just don't see it.

[ArmyBengal]

I don't see any avenue possible for Abraham to end up in stripes. Just not cost effective for the team at this point...

WHODEY !!!

[massie0929]

It would be nice to get a player of his caliber, but the amount of money he commands just doesn't fit in to the Bengals salary cap. Besides if we picked him up we wouldn't be able to do much else in the free agent market.

[HairOnFire]

Anyone here think the Bengals are going to agree to a deal averaging 6, 7, 8 million a year? And that in addition to giving up draft picks and/or current players?

Sorry, but I just don't see it.

Hey, I'm having alot of trouble seeing it happen, but I still love the idea. You might even say it's the elephant in my living room. And I don't think Abraham's long term contract demands are a deal breaker. After all, the Bengals offer for Corey Simon, currently the highest paid DT in the NFL, was almost identical to the offer he accepted. Ehhh?

Plus, Abraham would provide far more bang for the buck than Simon could ever hope to. Remember, elite defensive ends are the rarest commodity in the NFL and the still young Abraham has been elected to the Pro Bowl three times.

Other random thoughts...

The Bengals have a fairly solid history of paying top dollar for their own established stars. Palmer is currently the highest paid player in the entire NFL, right? Corey Dillon, Willie Anderson, and Chad Johnson's contracts ranked amongst the highest paid to their position when signed. And many of their rejected offers to FA players have been better or as competitive as the offers those players accepted to play elsewhere.

The Bengals have the cap space needed. Regardless of which soft figures are believed, 12-17 million, the Bengals have the cap space needed to get a deal like this done.

And I'd be remiss if I didn't remind The NextBigOutburst that the Bengals could create almost 3 million in cap space just by cutting an aging CB that might have one more year left, and then again...might not.

More? Ignore the argument that it'll take two 1st round picks to get Abraham. I believe the Jets take much less in return, and will be heavily motivated to move Abraham prior to the draft. In fact, I beleive that if they don't complete a trade they'll eventually remove the tag, making Abraham a FA. And although that would be far cheaper than the trade option this scenario doesn't play well in Bengala. The Bengals best opportunity to land Abraham in stripes comes by way of the trade option.

So what would it take to satisfy the Jets?

The Bengals have several players on their roster that should appeal to the Jets. For example, take Chris Perry. Please. And before anyone attempts to remind me how valuable Perry is...let me suggest that when you make that argument you're actually making my point for me. So go for it, puff up his value, as that would allow me to concentrate on pointing out the fact that Perry represents an offensive spare part that could easily be replaced, probably inexpensively. Thus, I dangle Perry, and I greedily hope the Jets bite without asking for more. And if they did, well...how about giving them Perry and the Bengals 1st round pick in exchange for Abraham and the Jets 2nd round pick?

Other options?

Well, the options are almost endless. So come up with your own and win cash prizes!!! That said, does anyone really want to suggest that the Bengals can get a better player if they keep their 1st round draft choice? Probably not, right? After all, Abraham has played 6 seasons and has produced nearly a sack for every game started. So if the Jets don't want Perry, and I wouldn't blame them if they didn't, then I say let's put the 1st round pick in play, as well as a mid-round pick from the following draft.

Do it.

[AMC]

it's hard for one defensive player to make "all" the difference on a team....best to use that money for 2-3 other guys....

[HoosierCat]

And I don't think Abraham's long term contract demands are a deal breaker. After all, the Bengals offer for Corey Simon, currently the highest paid DT in the NFL, was almost identical to the offer he accepted. Ehhh?

True...but that was after Simon was a free man. While he was still under Philly's tag, the Bengals allegedly reached a compensation deal wth the Eagles, but the deal blew up over Simon's big contract demands. And that's the situation again: the Bengals would have to give up something --- players and/or picks -- and then pay Abraham...well, let's face it, probably franchise-DE-caliber coin, on top of that.

In fact, I beleive that if they don't complete a trade they'll eventually remove the tag, making Abraham a FA. And although that would be far cheaper than the trade option this scenario doesn't play well in Bengala. The Bengals best opportunity to land Abraham in stripes comes by way of the trade option.

Also true...but I think the chances that the Jets are forced just to pull the tag and let Abraham go -- just as the Eagles did with Simon last year -- are pretty good. Abraham has all the leverage here; nothing happens until he inks that tender, and that won't happen until any potential suitor meets his demands -- which under the circumstances are likely to be way the hell up there (just like Simon's last year). Honestly, I will be surprised if the Jets are successful in dealing him to any team.

[turningpoint]

quite honestyl, i think abrahams tag is goingto be very short, they're 26 million over andj ust released 7 players, fabini, Law and Fielder are the 3 big stand outs...

that cuts some cap room, with martin apperently will to take a pay cut that willalso cut room,but not nearly 26 million.

if pennington is stubborn enough, IMO he will be, cause why take a pay cut and be stuck in NYC when you can get paid the same anywhere if he just makes it so NYC has to cut him?

IMO they won't be under the cap bye the apperent march 3rd deadline and they will have to pull the franchise tag on abaraham, that alone saves them 8.6 million.

he should be free in the next 3 weeks. that's just my oppinion.

[HairOnFire]

While he was still under Philly's tag, the Bengals allegedly reached a compensation deal wth the Eagles, but the deal blew up over Simon's big contract demands. And that's the situation again: the Bengals would have to give up something --- players and/or picks -- and then pay Abraham...well, let's face it, probably franchise-DE-caliber coin, on top of that.

Well, I've already touched on trading players and/or picks to the Jets, and I don't think the cost of doing that is a deal breaker. In fact, my gut tells me that the recent history of franchise tagged players being traded almost never involves two 1st round picks, and instead is about evenly split between a single 1st round pick or a mere 2nd round pick. Some deals have included sweetners, others don't. So come up with your own trade scenario that gives the Jets trade compenation equal to a single 1st round pick, any combo of players and picks you prefer, and I think we're there.

As for meeting Abraham's long-term demands, I agree it would represent the biggest hurdle. But Abraham is probably just as aware as Simon was that if granted free agency by the Jets his greatest reward would be the ability to decide where he plays, but won't include a long-term deal that comes close to his current demands. So why shouldn't the Bengals take their own shot? For the first time in forever they've got a head coach with major chops to flash, an MVP candidate playing QB, and a stable playoff team that looks like it will be a contender for several years.

BTW, you're a who knows his way around cap issues and also happens to have his ear fairly close to New York soil. What do you think we're talking about?

[Whur CHad At?]

I liked the Idea a couple of days ago about Abraham. But after more re-search on the guy, he seems to be like a big A-hole. So I will pass on him, and pursue Darren Howard.

[HoosierCat]

BTW, you're a who knows his way around cap issues and also happens to have his ear fairly close to New York soil. What do you think we're talking about?

Speculation is all over the place; my gut feeling is that the Jets will stick to their guns and demand at least a first round pick. Though the new regime isn't closely associated with the previous one that allowed Herm Edwards to whine his way to KC for just a 4th, I doub't it can afford to have its new and still tenuous credibility tarnished by letting Abraham go cheap. They'd probably lobby at least initially for at least a 3rd as well, or perhaps a conditional pick next year. With the franchise tag technically worth 2 1st's they have to fight to get as close to that as they can.

That, of course, is now. Once we get to draft day, the wheeling and dealing could get a bit more fluid. And most observers up here don't expect a deal before the draft (or perhaps the day before it). Personally, if the No. 24 pick came and the Bengals were looking at [insert questionable DT's name here] vs. [insert your favorite TE here] I'd offer them the pick for Abraham in about 0.02 seconds. And at that point he might go for just that. By then, the dangers involved in letting him go for lesser value will likely be outweighed by getting nothing for him, a la Simon.

I'm not suggesting here that doing a deal for Abraham is a bad idea; on the contrary I'd be thrilled. But the Bengals haven't been any more willing than any other team in the league to pay the kind of price in picks/players plus cash that's involved. Remember, the Ravens too reportedly pursued Simon with he was tagged, and they also backed off in the end. And Simon still got a pretty phat deal from Indy when he was released; somebody would find a way to pony up decent bucks for Abraham.

[The_Next_Big_Thing]

Keep what he have and draft. Going after someone elses tagged player is a bad deal.

[HoosierCat]

quite honestyl, i think abrahams tag is goingto be very short, they're 26 million over andj ust released 7 players, fabini, Law and Fielder are the 3 big stand outs...

that cuts some cap room, with martin apperently will to take a pay cut that willalso cut room,but not nearly 26 million.

Actually, if I'm reading the report in my local paper right, the cuts the Jets have made freed up just under $17 million, but that does NOT include the $11 million roster bonus due the now-departed Ty Law on March 3. (Or the savings from restructuring Martin). So effectively, yeah, they did clear all $26 million, and likely more since Abraham's tender has to fit under the cap, too. And those figures didn't include any savings from "lesser" cuts like FB Jerald Sowell. They have also reportedly entered into restrcturing talks with OG Pete Kendall, who they were expected to cut; he's got a cap number over $3 million for '06.

[schweinhart]

If the Jets were willing to take just a 1st rounder for J-Abe, what the Bengals do about it could get interesting.

Gotta figure the Jets realize that maybe they could get more from a team like the Bronocs who would be willing to give up a 1st and 3rd, say, since they got 2 1st round picks this year. It would be to the Broncos advantage to act now because other teams might be more inclined to keep their 1st round pick and wait for J-Abe to hit the market if the Jets do indeed withdraw the tag to soften their cap, like Turning Point has said.

Only problem with the Broncos is there cap situation too, which might even be worse than the Jets. With the Broncos maybe out of the J-Abe running, oddly the Bengals look like the most likely team to benefit because starting at teams with pick #20, either bad cap situations (Chiefs) or the lack of need at DE (Seahwaks, Panthers, Giants) would pretty much take J-Abe out of consideration for those teams, except maybe the Jags. It would seem less likely that a team with a pick higher than #20 would be as interested in parting with that pick plus paying J-Abe's salary.

The trade horizon for player swaps would seem ideally suited for Jets-Redskins who got a QB to unload in Patrick Ramsey and a team need for DE. However, the Skins also have a really bad cap situation. But who knows? Maybe the Bills would be willing to trade JP Losman and their 2nd rounder for J-Abe. Other teams like the Rams and Browns might also be interested but don't seem to have much other than picks to offer in return.

[HoosierCat]

The other wild card is the CBA extension. If that doesn't happen then options for both Abraham and the Jets are going to tighten up considerably. With fewer teams able to offer Abraham a big long-term deal, the Jets won't have as much leverage to extract top-tier compensation. And none of the offers may end up being as lucrative, or much more lucrative, than the 1-year franchise tender. (In fact I think that with no CBA extension you will see a rash of 1-year deals this FA season.) In that case I wouldn't be surprised if the Jets decided to keep Abraham and try again next year.

[HairOnFire]

Speculation is all over the place; my gut feeling is that the Jets will stick to their guns and demand at least a first round pick. Though the new regime isn't closely associated with the previous one that allowed Herm Edwards to whine his way to KC for just a 4th, I doub't it can afford to have its new and still tenuous credibility tarnished by letting Abraham go cheap. They'd probably lobby at least initially for at least a 3rd as well, or perhaps a conditional pick next year. With the franchise tag technically worth 2 1st's they have to fight to get as close to that as they can.

That, of course, is now. Once we get to draft day, the wheeling and dealing could get a bit more fluid. And most observers up here don't expect a deal before the draft (or perhaps the day before it). Personally, if the No. 24 pick came and the Bengals were looking at [insert questionable DT's name here] vs. [insert your favorite TE here] I'd offer them the pick for Abraham in about 0.02 seconds. And at that point he might go for just that. By then, the dangers involved in letting him go for lesser value will likely be outweighed by getting nothing for him, a la Simon.

I'm not suggesting here that doing a deal for Abraham is a bad idea; on the contrary I'd be thrilled. But the Bengals haven't been any more willing than any other team in the league to pay the kind of price in picks/players plus cash that's involved. Remember, the Ravens too reportedly pursued Simon with he was tagged, and they also backed off in the end. And Simon still got a pretty phat deal from Indy when he was released; somebody would find a way to pony up decent bucks for Abraham.

Well, the most important point you made wasn't the least bit discouraging as it's in agreement with one the things I've said previously. That being, a single 1st round pick might get the job done, and even if that proposal fell short a mid round sweetner would likey do the trick. Obviously I'd prefer a deal that didn't involve the Bengals 1st round pick at all, and instead was built around an offensive spare part the Bengals could easily replace. But again, I have no problem accepting the idea that the Jets wouldn't be interested in Chris Perry as they can very easily draft a comparable RB who doesn't have Perry's history of fragility.

However, I'm curious why the locals DON"T feel the Jets will be motivated to make a trade prior to the draft. Delaying a trade forces the Jets to carry the 8.3 million dollar tender on their books for a longer period of time, and a post draft trade likely means a smaller pool of interested teams as some will drop out after drafting DE's. In addition, a post draft trade means the Jets will be accepting picks from next years draft, instantly lowering their value in the eyes of most GM's.

Last, add the Texans and the Lions as teams now rumored to be interested in exploring a trade for Abraham.

[schweinhart]

No CBA and no question -- long-term, high-dollar contracts are largely out because there's no way to pro-rate signing bonus and teams will have to abide by the 30-percent salary increase rule. The Jets would still have to free up more cap to keep J-Abe, I would think, if the cap deadline remains for March. They've apparently got Martin satisfactorily restructured and have alread parted ways with big dollar guys in Ty Law, Jason Fabini, and Jat Fieldler. You've already mentioned Pete Kendall on the possible chopping block with a $4.3 million base (NFLPA) and a contract that runs through 2008. It's also possible another Jet O-Line vet could be on the way out -- Kevin Mawae ($2.8 mill base under contract through 2007).

I'm not sure where I read or maybe heard it (NFLN maybe), but it sounded to me like J-Abe was dead set against playing for the Jets. He's proven in the past (2004 playoffs) that if he doesn't want to play, he won't. Can't see that the Jets will see it any different and try to uload him the best way they can. But you're definitely on it -- w/o a CBA extension any contract J-Abe is going to get will be the equivalent of a franchise salary from year-to-year w/o the monstrous signing bonus unless it's a team, like the Brown, with lots of cap room to burn. (Plus they'd no doubt to ditch Kenard Lang).

[HairOnFire]

Keep what he have and draft. Going after someone elses tagged player is a bad deal.

I'd agree with you if we were talking about a position other than DE. Frankly, I'm not very impressed with the DE crop in this years draft, and I've got strong doubts that any of the top prospects will still be on the board when the Bengals are on the clock. I'd also say that one of the most attractive prospects who MIGHT be available, Kiwi, has a bust risk as great as his upside. So weigh that against the known production of Abraham.

That said, the Darren Howard option is attractive, and will probably be far cheaper for whoever signs him. However, history tells us that in a spirited and competitive bidding war the Bengals offer will either be used for leverage, rejected or ignored, or accepted only if the Bengals dramatically overpay. In comparison, a trade gives the Bengals the opportunity to make their pitch for a younger and more productive player from a smaller pool of bidding teams.

Last, if the cost of a trade is determined to be too high, for whatever reason you care to mention, then the Bengals simply walk away and no harm is done. But the original point of the thread seems to be asking if there should be interest shown by the Bengals, and what price would be reasonable to pay in trade compensation. And in answer to those questions, yes, I'd be very interested, and I'd be very willing to offer a compensation package of slightly more than 1st round value. Beyond that, I start to crumble.

[HoosierCat]

However, I'm curious why the locals DON"T feel the Jets will be motivated to make a trade prior to the draft.

I think the thinking is along the lines of, other teams won't be motivated to get serious until around then, since we have FA & the draft coming and as you said, they can fill DE needs that way, too. There was also a note in one of the stories on Abraham a day or 2 ago that his agent had not, at least yet, asked permission of the Jets to shop Abraham around. I figure that will change once FA hits, but there's a certain glacial nature to this whole affair, which IMHO is caused at least in part by, one, the lack of a CBA extension, and two, the fact the Jets are busy with cap issues right now (and possibly three, Abraham's unhappiness).

[HairOnFire]

You know I'm going to keep bumping this one until I just can't bump it no more. From KFFL:

Jets | Abraham says it is time to move on

Sun, 26 Feb 2006 06:58:12 -0800

Steve Serby, of the New York Post, reports New York Jets franchised DE John Abraham is more than ready to leave the Jets. "I don't think they really respect me as a player," Abraham told The Post yesterday in his first public remarks since being slapped with the $8.3 million franchise tag. "I feel I overstayed my welcome in New York. It's time to move on." What particularly irks Abraham is the silent treatment he's gotten from the Jets. "Their communication was really bad with me throughout the whole year," he said. There are rumblings that new head coach Eric Mangini and general manager Mike Tannenbaum will explore trading Abraham between now and the April 29 NFL Draft. Abraham has yet to sign the $8.3 franchise tender. Asked if he plans on signing it, Abraham said: "I'm not sure. It's according to what they're going to do. No one from that organization has called me personally."

Jets | Team still trying to trade for Ramsey

Sun, 26 Feb 2006 06:56:59 -0800

The New York Daily News reports the New York Jets are still working on a trade with the Washington Redskins for QB Patrick Ramsey.

[HoosierCat]

Some more bits from kffl...

Broncos | Potential landing spot for Abraham?

Mon, 27 Feb 2006 09:06:52 -0800

ESPN.com's Len Pasquarelli reports the New York Jets have talked with the Denver Broncos about a potential trade involving DE John Abraham, the Jets' franchise player.

Redskins | Potential landing spot for Abraham?

Mon, 27 Feb 2006 09:06:25 -0800

ESPN.com's Len Pasquarelli reports the New York Jets have talked with the Washington Redskins about a potential trade involving DE John Abraham, the Jets' franchise player.

Jets | Shopping Abraham

Mon, 27 Feb 2006 09:06:07 -0800

Updating ongoing reports, ESPN.com's Len Pasquarelli reports the New York Jets, according to multiple league sources, have been offering DE John Abraham, the team's franchise player, in trade talks during the NFL Combine. They have discussed potential scenarios with a number of teams.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

it's hard for one defensive player to make "all" the difference on a team....best to use that money for 2-3 other guys....

Problem is they only let you play 11 at a time. 3 crappy guys are 3 crappy guys. The Bengals no longer need to replace 8 starters on defense each offseason like they have for the last decade. They need 1-2 DLs and a safety as new starters. An extra corner to replace a Tory James that looked like he was running in concrete last year would be nice too. That's really it. Plugging in one stud starter into that might make a ton of difference on this team.

Don't know that it's Abraham, but still.

[HoosierCat]

from pft this a.m.:

ABRAHAM TRADED TO BRONCOS?

A.J. Vaynerchuck of JetsTV.com reports that the New York Jets have struck a deal to ship defensive end John Abraham to the Broncos in exchange for a first-round pick.

We're in the process of trying to confirm the report.

The Broncos hold the 22nd and 29th picks in round one. Vaynerchuk believes that the 29th pick is being sent to New York.

Our guess is that the Jets might then try to dangle the two first-round picks in an effort to jump up even higher in the draft, possibly as high as the No. 1 overall spot on the board. The Texans could be tempted to make a deal, since it would enable them to snag a guy like tackle D'Brickashaw Ferguson at No. 4, giving them another first-rounder later in the day.

NFL teams use a chart that applies point values to draft picks for trade purposes. Under the standard draft pick valuation chart, a No. 4 and a No. 29 wouldn't be enough to justify a trade up to No. 1, and the Jets would have to throw in another pick or two, if they indeed intend to make a run at the top spot.

The Jets slapped the franchise tag on Abraham a week ago, and Abraham has made clear his desire to get out of New York. The Jets have been shopping him for the past few days.

If the report is true, the Broncos' decision to cut on Wednesday defensive lineman Trevor Pryce, running back Mike Anderson, and tight end Jeb Putzier makes plenty of sense. The Broncos needed to clear cap room in order to absorb the new deal that Abraham undoubtedly will sign with the Jets, after putting his John Hancock on the franchise tag. The Jets then would trade the new contract to Denver.

To avoid a cap hit for the Jets, the deal undoubtedly will include not a signing bonus but an option bonus payment due within a few days after the trade is consummated, putting the entire responsibility for his cap number in 2006 and beyond (if there's a cap) on the Broncos.