kingwilly Posted September 17, 2005 Report Share Posted September 17, 2005 QB ratings for last five games:Rothlisp - 111Palmer - 108Culpepper 102Manning 102Brady - 100Hassleback - 100Bulger - 99NFL.com - looked through the matchups stats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
semiotter Posted September 17, 2005 Report Share Posted September 17, 2005 He has led a 4th quarter comeback.He has performed great on the big stageHe spreads the ball aroundHe routinely throws for over 70% (Unbelievable)Takes command of the offenseHis teammates like himNeeds to work on - 1 thing Ben does that Palmer doesn't. The bad decisions. See Pitt's 2 touchdownsLast week's end zone throw. Overall throws some balls in the air.He will improve on this, and I look forward to a Brady Palmer showdown in the playoffs. You left out he is still young and still learning and probley get alot better! I can hardly control myself... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott91575 Posted September 17, 2005 Report Share Posted September 17, 2005 This debate is pretty simple. There are two things that are the main factor in a Super Bowl team.1a) A great QB1b) A great defenseThere are few exceptions. Of course a case can be made that a great oline made the QB. Yet for the most part this is true. You still need supporting characters, but the others are always there.In Ben's case, he has 1B. On top of that he has the oline and running game. Honestly, this team didn't win the Super Bowl because of Ben R. Switch Tom Brady and Ben...the Steelers are champs. He is asked to do very little. The only time he is asked to throw the ball is in a situation most NFL QB's can take advantage of.In the end Big Ben lost the championship for the Steelers. They had the team in place. The Patriots had the team to dare him to beat them. He didn't. Until he proves he can do that, or Pittsburgh drops in the olines or D, he is a mediocre QB.Now if the Bengals can actually make a solid playoff run we can all agree it's on Palmer's shoulders. The oline is there. The run game is there. Yet he needs to make up for the D. Ben doesn't have to do that. We shall see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC_Bengals_Fan Posted September 17, 2005 Report Share Posted September 17, 2005 I'm not afraid of stats, I just think passer ratings and things of that nature are over-rated (Ben Roethlisberger had a perfect passer rating last week)Also, Vick is injury prone? In his career, other than his one leg injury, he has missed exactly 2 games. Palmer must be injury prone too then.And, you're right. Defenses with fast LB's can contain him fairly well, but those teams seem to be very few and far between, because he still manages to win game after game. Tampy Bay seems to be the only team that contains him regularly.Regarding your comment about the D playing better when Vick is in the game, don't ask me. Ask the Falcon's Defensive coordinator. But he seems to be speaking the truth, because in 2003 without Vick they were the worst defense in the league... last year they were in the top half.Also, in 2003 when the Falcons only won 5 games... Vick played the last 5 games, not being 100%, and helped win 3 of them. That means, without him, they only won 2 games that season.I agree with you that he is not a great "passer". You won't hear me argue that he is... all I am saying is that Vick brings something to the game that you can't quantify with stats. Vick haters love to show his completion percentage, and say he's not a "true" QB. Well, maybe not... but every person who brings revolution is met with resistance.I doubt Vick will be able to play like he does into his mid-to late 30's... but as of right now, there is no stat that can argue with the fact that he wins games. And you're right... he is a big enough part of the running game, that his presense brought them from ranked 14th in the league to 1st by a considerable margin (over 200 more yards on almost 100 fewer attempts than Pittsburgh). The way he elevates the players production around him is not measurable.anyway... I'm feeling guilty now making a long Vick post in a thread that should be about Palmer. So to bring it back, Palmer does not yet do the "intangible" stuff that Vick does that I view makes him "elite". Of course, no other QB does what Vick does... so Palmer must do it the conventional way. I imagine he will be viewed as "elite" by the larger community of NFL fans as early as next year, assuming we can make the playoffs. But he'll have to come out strong next year too, because as someone else posted... One really good year doesn't qualify you for "elite" status, i.e. Brees.TB does contain Vick well, and Philly does as well. I do not think he "brings out the best in the players around him" - certainly not if they're receivers. I've heard quite a bit that suggests that Price's failure in Atlanta is as much Vick's fault as his, because Vick simply can't work in a timing offense at all. This is due to his constant running around and terrible throwing accuracy. And I'm not a hater of the running QB either, believe me. When used correctly, it can be devastating (see Young, Steve). Indeed, I think McNabb should run a lot more in general (this week with his sternum excepted). I just think Vick needs to learn how to be better than a bottom-10 passer to be a good QB, and he's definitely not there yet. I'm not saying Vick's terrible - his running takes his poor passing and makes an average or slightly better QB out of him. It's also fun watching him, and the one thing you can say about him that you can't anyone else - the play's never dead until Vick's down.And the digression only serves to show that Palmer is a better QB than Vick for a team with super bowl aspirations. Palmer's not a scrambler, but he can move in the pocket. He's accurate, he makes his progressions, and he knows where to put the ball when throwing to a receiver. And because he can successfully throw short and long, it'll be harder for a defense to completely shut him down. That's why the Falcons will never win a Super Bowl - they won't be able to play 3-4 good teams in a row without one of them completely shutting Vick down. As far as intangiables -Vick makes a lot of mistakes - the only "intangiable" I need to know about Vick is that he turned the ball over 19 times last year compared to 17 total TDs (don't get me started on the sacks). Palmer is quickly making fewer and fewer mistakes, and it's exciting to watch.Don't confuse the fact that Vick is much more exciting with him actually being better than Palmer, because he's not and I don't really think he ever will be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irish Bengal Posted September 17, 2005 Report Share Posted September 17, 2005 M. Vick sucks. Atlanta would be terrible if not for their DEFENSE !Watching Atlanta on sundays is like watching the halfback option being run over and over and over.Anyway, I would like to see the Bengals run more 4 and 5 WR sets. Kind of like NE does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobcat Bengal Posted September 17, 2005 Report Share Posted September 17, 2005 Palmer is an elite NFL QB. ...right now. I understand he still makes the occasional dumb mistake, but that doesn't change the end result. He's already amongst the very best.Agreed.Some may argue that his performance looks better than it is due to his receving corps, and there may be some semblance of truth to that. Palmer performs better with the team he has been given than many other QBs with similar advantages. (ie. Joey Harrington, Kyle Boller) He always finds the open man quickly, and stands as strong in the pocket as anyone else in this league, except perhaps Brady.He doesn't hesitate to use his checkdown receivers or tight ends, even if his options at receiver are much more talented. He doesn't throw into tight coverage nearly as often as he did early last year, and when he does, he puts the ball where only his receiver can get it.His only weakness, as has been said, is his tendency to make foolish mistakes. That comes with youth, and will improve given time. We've all seen how quickly he has adapted to this offense, and how that success can compare to other quarterbacks given much more time and still have yet to reach his level.If our defense can be gelled by mid-season, and at least be top 13 caliber, then we'll start to see Palmer do what Roethlisberger does, but better. We have a budding superstar on our hands, and with Marvin at the helm, that could very well mean a superbowl or three. Nah, not really.I believe it is because of Palmer that TJ HAS that multi-million dollar contract extension.Yeah, Palmer f**ked up more than a lil bit last year.But he also shined at times.He was basically a rookie playing out there, Ill let him slide with those mistakes.Thats really what he has to do, limit the mistakes. Know when to tuck the ball and rush.But, am I the only one that thinks his arm isnt strong enough to hit CJ in stride?Every long ball he's thrown CJ has had to slow down to catch it..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobcat Bengal Posted September 17, 2005 Report Share Posted September 17, 2005 All this debates about Rottenburger and Carson.....Look they're BOTH good....They both produce the objectives of their respective teams..I lilke Palmer but I have watched Rottenburger enough to know that he's a goode one... a very good one.. Yeah, he's gotta point.I went to OU, so I had the opportunity to see Roethlisberger close-up.He's the real deal. A lotta of us downplay his role with that team, but I seriously doubt that Maddox would have went 15-1 over that same stretch.We've known Pitts' M.O. for a while guys.Smash-mouth running game, elite defense, particularly the LB's.I mean, Im not the one to rush to give Big Ben props, but still, he's a good QB.He has more abilities than Maddox, much like Palmer has more talent that Kitna.Let's give the guy SOME credit. THeres very few QB's in the league that could attain that type of record, regardless of the circumstances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengal4life4show Posted September 17, 2005 Report Share Posted September 17, 2005 If carson palmer was on the steelers last year they win the superbowl, because he is better then big ben. there is no doubt in my mind that in 5 years it will be peyton brady and palmer...with eli manning being up there prolly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rimington over Marino Posted September 17, 2005 Report Share Posted September 17, 2005 True the Bengals defense is not up to par. The problem is Palmer gave up points off interceptions that cost the team 3 or 4 games. Especially the Pittsburgh(2) and Baltimore and NE games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingwilly Posted September 17, 2005 Report Share Posted September 17, 2005 ...and the Titans and Jets Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairOnFire Posted September 17, 2005 Report Share Posted September 17, 2005 QB ratings for last five games:Rothlisp - 111Palmer - 108Culpepper 102Manning 102Brady - 100Hassleback - 100Bulger - 99NFL.com - looked through the matchups stats. Ding! BTW, I finally read the rest of that LA Times article about how ugly the Bengals uniforms have always looked, but how much better they look with Palmer under center. Included in the article was a nugget about Palmer's 113.7 QB rating since Nov.28, 04 being better than ANY QB in the NFL. Manning was 2nd at 106, biggest Ben was 3rd at 103. Bottom Line: Yeah, he'll get better, but he's already there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kazkal Posted September 17, 2005 Report Share Posted September 17, 2005 diff is though palmer airs it out to win and relys on his arm like manning where big ben is just asked not to lose the game.... like he did vs patriots and almost to the jets Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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