Did we get cheated?

[agreen_112]

We all know that last play was exactly the Bengals luck, nothing ever seems to go right for us, I'm used to that... Let's not talk about that here in this thread.

I've been officiating football for 3 years now so I know the rules really well. I'm also the head ref for most of my games so keeping the clock is something that I know very well.. Obviously I do not officiate NFL games but the rules translate. I do peewee up to junior varsity (HS).

Now maybe some of you can help me but I really think that we were cheated on that challenge/time out charged to the Bengals play and that it effected the result of the game...

I'm listening to the game on the radio but I had a very clear discription of the playcalling, I did not see what coach Marvin did at this point... Read very carefully.

When Caldwell caught the pass and was downed at the one half yard mark there was :41 seconds left on the clock. Play was stopped to review the play. Now at this point this is no different than and Official time out. The ref reviews the play, gives the annoucement that the ruling on the field stands. We kick the extra point. Then, the ref says to set the playclock/gameclock to :20. This was the right call!!!

Denver's coach calls over the official and starts a debate. After the debate, he comes back out and says, "The ruling on the field stands, therefore Cincinati is charged a T.O. Please reset the gameclock to :41 (or :38, I can't remember)."

First of all we can't call a challenge under 2:00. The booth reviewed the play.

So let's just say he got the call right after he made the announcement... After an official T.O., the gameclock would be running depending on the outcome of the previous play. I did not see the catch from Caldwell and Lapham didn't say wheter he was in or out of bounds at the one half yard marker... Fill me in on this because this is very important.

IF he was out of bounds the clock wouldn't run. If he was in, the clock starts on the ready (when the ref blows his whistle to start play).. That's why he knocked the clock down to :20. We come to the line, get set, and run the ball into the endzone for a TD. That takes :15 - :20 seconds.

The initial call was correct. There should've been :20 when we were kicking off... I hate Marvin if my theory is correct. Why didn't marvin question the challenge and the Bengals being charged a time out when it was reviewed by the booth? Is this a rule in the NFL? From what I understand, if the booth reviews a play, it's just a review, there are no time outs charged. If that is a rule, then the call is correct. The clock was NOT running on the ready. In my opinion, and my best educated guess, the should NOT have been a time out called and the clock should've been running on the ready at :41.

So, with :20 left on the clock, we kick it off. The clock runs and about :10 seconds are taken off. This is a completely different ball game. :10 or :30 is a BIG differnce. The Broncos would've had time to run ONE play.

How much time did it take to run the play after the booth challenge? How much time did the kickoff run? Would the Broncos have time for two plays? Should the Bengals have been charged a time out? Should we petition the NFL?

The challenge and whether Caldwell was in or out of bounds is what this all boils down to.. This was a VERY rare situation and it goes to show that if the officials are not fully trained in these situation chaos can insue. If Caldwell was IN bounds, the refs blew this game for us and MARVIN let it happen. I ref peewee games and the coaches know more about the rules than Marvin..

I'm furious.

[Sea Ray]

If I understood Marvin correctly in his post game comments, he said that he called TO immediately and then the officials used that time to review the play. That seems plausible because if it was solely a boothe review they could not have stopped the call at 41 secs. As you know it takes a few secs to beep the ref and tell him to stop play for a review. In hindsight it was stupid for Marvin to call a TO right away. Another late game clock management blunder to add to his resume.

However this didn't cause the Bengals to lose. A freak bounce of the ball did

[coupdayta]

Seems pretty straight forward to me. Ten seconds left meant Denver would've thrown to the endzone, not to the sideline like they actually did. The Mircacle Tip never would've happened.

[agreen_112]

If Marvin called a time out somebody needs to shoot his dumb ass.

[cincy9275]

caldwell was tackled inbounds, also i agree how can they charge us a timeout when the booth reviewed it not the bengals. there was a couple plays i think the should have been reviewed. the first play, denver ran a drag route. the receiver caught the pass took 2 steps with the ball then i believe hall knocked the ball loose, ndukwe picked it up and would have been td but the refs called the pass incomplete so that killed any review. i thought the nfl told the refs to let the play finish and use replay to correct the call. that did not happen! second i think jj intercepted that ball on the play before the tipped pass. once again the refs called him out of bounds killing any replay. these are 2 plays the refs should have used replay to get right and not make a judgement call because i believe the bengals would have won both or at least 1 of the replays. the refs let denver get away with holding our DE all game, the PI call on chad was bs. the first palmer sack the defender slapped palmer's head when he tackled him no call. then the play where the safety and bailey both lead with their helmets when they tackled chad but no call there. then stokley's catch where he ran across the goal line to burn time should have been a delay of game penalty.

the perception of the bengals is so bad, that we can't even get the benefit of doubt from the refs.

[cincy9275]

If I understood Marvin correctly in his post game comments, he said that he called TO immediately and then the officials used that time to review the play. That seems plausible because if it was solely a boothe review they could not have stopped the call at 41 secs. As you know it takes a few secs to beep the ref and tell him to stop play for a review. In hindsight it was stupid for Marvin to call a TO right away. Another late game clock management blunder to add to his resume.

However this didn't cause the Bengals to lose. A freak bounce of the ball did

the refs exact words was; there was no reversal on the replay so there for the bengals are charged a time out.

[coupdayta]

If I understood Marvin correctly in his post game comments, he said that he called TO immediately and then the officials used that time to review the play. That seems plausible because if it was solely a boothe review they could not have stopped the call at 41 secs. As you know it takes a few secs to beep the ref and tell him to stop play for a review. In hindsight it was stupid for Marvin to call a TO right away. Another late game clock management blunder to add to his resume.

However this didn't cause the Bengals to lose. A freak bounce of the ball did

the refs exact words was; there was no reversal on the replay so there for the bengals are charged a time out.

Yeah they never said anything about the Bengals calling a time out. And if they didn't, why would they be charged one and why was the clock reset? If they did, and that's a big IF, it has got to be one of the worst calls in Lewis' tenure.

[Sea Ray]

If Marvin indeed did call a TO then the clock can't start until the ball is snapped

[agreen_112]

If Marvin indeed did call a TO then the clock can't start until the ball is snapped

You're right... But did Marvin call a time out? That's the question... The officials words were "The ruling on the field stands, therefor Cincinnati is charged a TO."

That stops the clock at :38.

If the booth challenged the play, the clock is running on the ready to play signal because Caldwell was in bounds. It's as simple as that.

Now if Marvin said TO after Caldwell was downed then the clock runs on the snap, which it did. I'm not sure Marvin called a TO...

In my opinion, It's amazing how no one is talking about this discrepency...

[Sea Ray]

Now if Marvin said TO after Caldwell was downed then the clock runs on the snap, which it did. I'm not sure Marvin called a TO...

In my opinion, It's amazing how no one is talking about this discrepency...

It has been covered. This is from Bengals.com:

“They said that replay didn’t stop it and that they were stopping it for my timeout as opposed to stopping it for replay," Lewis said. "Initially they said replay would stop it, but since they didn’t change the challenge on replay, they had to come back to me calling timeout, which turned out to be irrelevant.”

Denver head coach Josh McDaniels was ready to call his last timeout.

“It was an odd situation. They had called a timeout. Then the upstairs decided to review whether he scored or not," McDaniels said. "When they came back out and said he didn’t score, they didn’t tell me they were going to wind the clock.

Marvin admits that he called TO. The only way they could give him his TO back was to reverse the call. Since they didn't Marvin's TO stood. Interesting that Denver's coach would have called a TO if he had to in order to stop the clock

[skyline]

Everyone can blast Marvin for taking a TO there, but I thought Caldwell was in myself, and probably would have done the same thing. If I think he scored on that play, then I'm going to take the 7 points and a little time on the clock as opposed to running down the clock and possibly fumbling it while trying to run it into the endzone on the next play or two.

TO or not, the Bengals were still in control of that game...you expect to be able to stop a team with only 1 TO from scoring in 35 seconds.

[Pidge]

No we weren't cheated. All the details and nuances aside the O just had to score two TDs against an iffy D and we walk away with the W. They didn't. A lot of players played their tails off on D, albeit against Orton, and many players on O stank the joint up, with a couple of exceptions.

If the D can improve further and hold better Offenses (or more accurately better QBs because the Donks still had a lot of weapons out there) to around 20 points or so then we should see our Offense earn the win. Basically, for me, it is all on the Offense. Yesterday was brutal from them and they owe all of us a much improved game next week.

[agreen_112]

No we weren't cheated. All the details and nuances aside the O just had to score two TDs against an iffy D and we walk away with the W. They didn't. A lot of players played their tails off on D, albeit against Orton, and many players on O stank the joint up, with a couple of exceptions.

If the D can improve further and hold better Offenses (or more accurately better QBs because the Donks still had a lot of weapons out there) to around 20 points or so then we should see our Offense earn the win. Basically, for me, it is all on the Offense. Yesterday was brutal from them and they owe all of us a much improved game next week.

Were we cheated?

From our friend Kirkendale...

"Now, based on Rule 4, Section 1, Article 3 of the Official NFL Rule Book, which says "game officials can correct the game clock only before the next play is run, including an untimed down or try", the officials shouldn't have been able to change the game clock once the following play was completed. Not only did they change the game clock after Benson's touchdown and before the PAT, they changed it again before the kickoff."

/>http://www.cincyjungle.com/2009/9/13/1029017/answering-the-mystery-of-the-18

I knew something wasn't right here.. The refs screwed this up big time whether they made the right call or not.

Denver was ready to call a TO after the catch anyway and the refs got the call right but by rule, there should be :20 seconds on the clock for the kickoff.

[Pidge]

Yeah, but arguing over whether 20 seconds on the clock cost us the game isn't the point. We may have been a victim of poor officiating at that point so BOO to that. It didn't lose us the game though.

[agreen_112]

Yeah, but arguing over whether 20 seconds on the clock cost us the game isn't the point. We may have been a victim of poor officiating at that point so BOO to that. It didn't lose us the game though.

REad the article, it had everything to do with losing us the game.. The Broncos would've have 1 TO with < :15 seconds. They would've had to run a differently play, not go to the sidelines and we would've had a differnt defensive setup.

[cincy9275]

Yeah, but arguing over whether 20 seconds on the clock cost us the game isn't the point. We may have been a victim of poor officiating at that point so BOO to that. It didn't lose us the game though.

Pidge you are absolutely right, most of us a searching hard for a reason they lost. they lost because of the offense plain and simple.

[Pidge]

Yeah, but arguing over whether 20 seconds on the clock cost us the game isn't the point. We may have been a victim of poor officiating at that point so BOO to that. It didn't lose us the game though.

REad the article, it had everything to do with losing us the game.. The Broncos would've have 1 TO with < :15 seconds. They would've had to run a differently play, not go to the sidelines and we would've had a differnt defensive setup.

Just another excuse. You don't always get the rub of the green in professional sports. The things the team can control are the crucial aspect. Our team, let's go all Buddhist here and not even separate the O and the D, didn't take care of their s**t. That's the why the game was ultimately lost. If you leave things close or open to just one f**k up then often that one thing can and does go wrong.

In fact, I'd feel a whole lot worse had the team taken care of bidniss yesterday and we were a victim of some conspiracy. As it is, the team lost because they weren't good enough. That can be fixed. Being hosed by refs or some evil Pitt/Balt/Cleveland/Goodell Machiavellian conspiracy can't be.

[redsbengalsbucks]

They were ripped off, but not because of the time on the clock. J. Joseph intercepted the pass before the fluke play and looked to have gotten both feet in bounds. Why did the booth not review this play? Even if it turns out it was not a catch, it should have been looked at.

[ct_bengal]

They were ripped off, but not because of the time on the clock. J. Joseph intercepted the pass before the fluke play and looked to have gotten both feet in bounds. Why did the booth not review this play? Even if it turns out it was not a catch, it should have been looked at.

victims of a young secondary, it was nice to see that td drive at the end, but i had a feeling that something crazy was going to happen, it always does. theres really no excuse for this loss. it is the absolute worst way to lose, in a couple of weeks it will just be a big L on list where there is hopefully more W's. beating greenbay isn't out of the question, even if it takes an 87 yd tipped pass to do so...i just hope they make up this loss with a big win at pitt

[agreen_112]

This is not a conspiracy Pidge, the rule is the rule. We got hosed. The calls were going to the Broncos the whole game... I agree with you redsbengals, the booth should've looked at the J.Joe interception.

Pidge you are right though, it should'nt come down to one play like that, but it did. The Bengals played a good game but they could've played better. We can blame the refs all day for the calls but we should've put more than 7 points on the board... It sucks that a discrepancy and a fluke play lost us the game though. You hate to loose a game like that.

[Pidge]

Welcome ct. Name seems familiar, maybe I've seen it while lurking on other bengals forums.

[Pidge]

This is not a conspiracy Pidge, the rule is the rule. We got hosed. The calls were going to the Broncos the whole game... I agree with you redsbengals, the booth should've looked at the J.Joe interception.

Pidge you are right though, it should'nt come down to one play like that, but it did. The Bengals played a good game but they could've played better. We can blame the refs all day for the calls but we should've put more than 7 points on the board... It sucks that a discrepancy and a fluke play lost us the game though. You hate to loose a game like that.

Dude, totally. Just a whole boatload of frustration. This is a game for us fans to forget but I hope this game is burned into the players' memories and they use to get the job done in the future.

[ct_bengal]

Welcome ct. Name seems familiar, maybe I've seen it while lurking on other bengals forums.

thanks, nope first bengals forum ever. i have been reading here for a couple years now but never registered. but after that loss i had to vent , not many bengals fans in ct

[redsbengalsbucks]

This is not a conspiracy Pidge, the rule is the rule. We got hosed. The calls were going to the Broncos the whole game... I agree with you redsbengals, the booth should've looked at the J.Joe interception.

Pidge you are right though, it should'nt come down to one play like that, but it did. The Bengals played a good game but they could've played better. We can blame the refs all day for the calls but we should've put more than 7 points on the board... It sucks that a discrepancy and a fluke play lost us the game though. You hate to loose a game like that.

I agree with you there also, but the game should have ended with another great Defensive play instead of that fluke TD. The D played great and has me excited for the season. Defense wins championships!!

This game actually reminded me of a Bengal win from the early 90's, win the game, even though the other team outplayed them, on a fluke play.

[Sea Ray]

No question the refs did not handle this properly and probably will be told that by the league this week. They actually changed the clock twice. They changed it from 0:38 to 0:20 before the PAT and then they changed it back to 0:38 after. You can see Denver's point too. If they'd have known the clock was running they would have called a TO. It's not fair to them to just announce after the play that 0:18s mysteriously disappeared.

Bengal fans are desperately trying to find a goat here; the officials, Marvin, the JJ almost INT, the DBs...It was just a fluke, a once in 20 years fluke and of course the Bengals are on the wrong side of it