Outside the Lines

[HairOnFire]

Pretty boring thread. Absolutely nothing new happened other than ESPN jumping on the soapbox during the slowest period in sports.

So are you guys going to geek everytime a new source chronicles the same event without adding any new information?

Is it Groundhog Day?

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Well, until he graduates up to Frostee the Ripper I'm not convinced that anything he's done off the field should've have been his death knell on draft day since there were no charges pending at the time and his conviction was in the distant enough past. The Outside the Lines sure sounds more like Off the Mark unless there's more charges in the fold.

1) There weren't charges pending, but anyone who did their homework knew charges were coming. It was reported publically before the draft. If I knew about it --before the Bengals drafted him -- I'd sure hope Marvin did, or whoever's in charge of drafting these losers.

2) If by distant past you mean multiple episodes of sexual assault over the last 5 years, then yeah, distant past. If one further considers the extremely high rate of recidivism among sexual predators - and for Frostee himself - I'd say there's a better than 50% chance this happens again. I'd rather not have the a**h*** on the team, he's not that good.

3) As you say, it was questionable whether he was 3rd round material, so why take the risk when there are a lot of guys on the board who are as good or better who haven't been arrested recently? I'm not saying draft a kicker who was on the honor roll instead. But can we avoid felons?

Quite frankly, by the middle of last year I thought the days of being embarassed to be a Bengals fan were behind me. Clearly I was wrong.

[schweinhart]

I hear you DC. The Bengals under Marvin really haven't delved into players with past histories of sexual assault allegations except for street free agent CB Alvin Porter who had a civil case and rookie free agent Mondre Dickerson, who got charged again with rape shortly after the Bengals cut him IIRC.

It has been twist with Rucker and Nicholson plus the meltdown of Chris Henry but hopefully players like Palmer, Madieu and Pollack will help soften the image thing for the team if it's an issue for them, which it probably should be to a degree given recent events. Course it's nowhere as bad as the whole Seattle Gang Bang epsiode in the early 90's IMO but still not something that is good either.

[Spor_tees]

Well, until he graduates up to Frostee the Ripper I'm not convinced that anything he's done off the field should've have been his death knell on draft day since there were no charges pending at the time and his conviction was in the distant enough past. The Outside the Lines sure sounds more like Off the Mark unless there's more charges in the fold.

1) There weren't charges pending, but anyone who did their homework knew charges were coming. It was reported publically before the draft. If I knew about it --before the Bengals drafted him -- I'd sure hope Marvin did, or whoever's in charge of drafting these losers.

2) If by distant past you mean multiple episodes of sexual assault over the last 5 years, then yeah, distant past. If one further considers the extremely high rate of recidivism among sexual predators - and for Frostee himself - I'd say there's a better than 50% chance this happens again. I'd rather not have the a**h*** on the team, he's not that good.

3) As you say, it was questionable whether he was 3rd round material, so why take the risk when there are a lot of guys on the board who are as good or better who haven't been arrested recently? I'm not saying draft a kicker who was on the honor roll instead. But can we avoid felons?

Quite frankly, by the middle of last year I thought the days of being embarassed to be a Bengals fan were behind me. Clearly I was wrong.

You guys need to look on the brightside and cut this guy some slack! Atleast the girls he was accused of assaulting were over 18 years of age!

[The_Next_Big_Thing]

I guess Marvin and Co. believe they can reform anyone. However, so far they've missed badly on Corey Dillon and now Chris Henry.

Ok, you must be on more drugs than Spain. Dude, Marvin didn't try to reform Corey Dillon, he traded his ass away.

There are TONS of guys in the NFL who are in trouble like this. We are talking about guys who think they own the world because they are athletes, are filled with too much testosterone and aggression (which makes them better on the field), and who are still young enough that they are too immature to do the right thing.

It's not just the NFL either. The NFL is just being caught recently by the media whereas in the past it was the NBA that had been the center of controversial players.

[Jet23]

I'm not defending Frostee, because dude obviously has issues, but my biggest problem with the piece involved ESPN's criticism of the Bengals for not accepting information from this attorney. Even the dude's client said she did not want him to be denied a living playing football, yet this dude was calling every NFL team. I would have told him to jump in a lake too.

[kingwilly]

I realy cant believe some of you guys STILL are on this guys bandwagon.

Why shouldn't we be? We haven't seen him play a single down. We don't know what to expect from him yet, so I'm not about to crap all over him.

Nicholson and Rucker have been arrested several times after getting drafted and BEFORE getting signed.

One arrest and one warrant between the two of them is several?

One arrest? Nicholson has been arrested once. Rucker was arrested and plead guilty (to a lesser charge when his accuser lost her nerve in fear of him) in 2003, and was arrested again for the new charges last week.

So that's 3 arrests and one conviction. Also recall that Nicholson was suspended and rucker kicked out of school.

Correction: Nicholson has been arrested 3 times.

1. DUI...got probation

2. Tasered after running from cops...charges dropped (but still arrested)

3. Breaking into house/Stealing some junk....arrested/ felony charges pending.

Rucker's checkered past is also well chronicled...plenty to dive into...Sealed Juvi records that purport sexual assault as a teen, accused of rape at CSU, took deal for a reduced charge of sexual harrasment (sentence deferred), transfered to USC...now this issue with his ex-girlie who HE got a restraining order against...? Wow.

Most telling/puzzling is ML's statement after the draft on this topic:

"The coaches at USC told us everything we needed to know about that situation," said Lewis. "This is something we address when the guys get here - we let them know they are targets. Everything with regard to Frostee is on the straight and forward, and we feel comfortable with him." Sure, ML....youve got it covered...

So, if I read this correctly, they entrusted the USC staff with vouvhing for Frostee's character? Kind of like a used car salesman telling you the car you want was owned by a little old lady to drive to the grocery store. With the smallest scotuing staff in the NFL and resources obviously stretched thin, it is possible they took the USC staff at their word and didn't/wouldn't dig deeper (too uncover a patternistic woman abuser).

DPM...I think you are WAY, WAY off on Rucker...r2 talent???? give me a break. Did you ever watch him play for USC??? I did every week...he is average at best....maybe an r5 grade without the character issues...r6 - UDFA is fair considering his issues. The guy has some probelms that are NOT outweighed by his performance. Rucker is not going to surprise anyone...he is bland and average and won't contribute beyond ST this year at all.

[Dadraftnick]

I maintain that if a guy can't follow the simple rules of society, such as not raping someone,not driving drunk,not pulling a gun on someone,not giving alcohol to minors,ect then how is he going to follow the complicated rules of a defense or offense and stay within the scheme.

I know I haven't broken any of those rules and it was easy.

I played football and it was hard to play and stay with your assignment (such as lanes in kicks ect)when your natural reaction was to hit the guy with the damn ball.

What did Marvin say was the problem with the team when he got here?

Guys were not staying within their assignments,they were trying to do too much and not being disciplined which is an aspect of character.

Last years motto--Do your job!- meant follow the rules,do what the scheme calls for,dont try to do someone else's job,be disciplined.

As for making excuses for these guys like too much testorone,if these guys did this stuff to your own you wouldn't ask how many sacks the guy had you want him put away,and ask what are we doing with a guy like this on the team.

Of the three stooges,at least Henry has shown some talent and his charges were not as serious as rape,but he makes up for that in quantity.

But I dont see the level of talent on Nicholson and Rucker that would make the gamble worth a risk.

[derekshank]

I maintain that if a guy can't follow the simple rules of society, such as not raping someone,not driving drunk,not pulling a gun on someone,not giving alcohol to minors,ect then how is he going to follow the complicated rules of a defense or offense and stay within the scheme.

I know I haven't broken any of those rules and it was easy.

I played football and it was hard to play and stay with your assignment (such as lanes in kicks ect)when your natural reaction was to hit the guy with the damn ball.

What did Marvin say was the problem with the team when he got here?

Guys were not staying within their assignments,they were trying to do too much and not being disciplined which is an aspect of character.

Last years motto--Do your job!- meant follow the rules,do what the scheme calls for,dont try to do someone else's job,be disciplined.

As for making excuses for these guys like too much testorone,if these guys did this stuff to your own you wouldn't ask how many sacks the guy had you want him put away,and ask what are we doing with a guy like this on the team.

Of the three stooges,at least Henry has shown some talent and his charges were not as serious as rape,but he makes up for that in quantity.

But I dont see the level of talent on Nicholson and Rucker that would make the gamble worth a risk.

I don't like all the character risks in the draft either... but this reasoning is stupid. Jamal Lewis and Ray Lewis don't seem to have problems being great even though that are plainly bad people. T.O. is an idiot who always does his own thing... even in the lockerroom, but on the field he always does what he's supposed to do.

I liked the Odell and Henry risks, even though Henry really didn't work out. Given those problems, I think it was too much of a risk to take Rucker and possibly throw away the 2nd straight 3rd round pick. However, to assume that because they choose to disobey the law means they can't play football well is ridiculous. You don't get picked in the 3rd round if you can't play.

[Dadraftnick]

I maintain that if a guy can't follow the simple rules of society, such as not raping someone,not driving drunk,not pulling a gun on someone,not giving alcohol to minors,ect then how is he going to follow the complicated rules of a defense or offense and stay within the scheme.

I know I haven't broken any of those rules and it was easy.

I played football and it was hard to play and stay with your assignment (such as lanes in kicks ect)when your natural reaction was to hit the guy with the damn ball.

What did Marvin say was the problem with the team when he got here?

Guys were not staying within their assignments,they were trying to do too much and not being disciplined which is an aspect of character.

Last years motto--Do your job!- meant follow the rules,do what the scheme calls for,dont try to do someone else's job,be disciplined.

As for making excuses for these guys like too much testorone,if these guys did this stuff to your own you wouldn't ask how many sacks the guy had you want him put away,and ask what are we doing with a guy like this on the team.

Of the three stooges,at least Henry has shown some talent and his charges were not as serious as rape,but he makes up for that in quantity.

But I dont see the level of talent on Nicholson and Rucker that would make the gamble worth a risk.

I don't like all the character risks in the draft either... but this reasoning is stupid. Jamal Lewis and Ray Lewis don't seem to have problems being great even though that are plainly bad people. T.O. is an idiot who always does his own thing... even in the lockerroom, but on the field he always does what he's supposed to do.

I liked the Odell and Henry risks, even though Henry really didn't work out. Given those problems, I think it was too much of a risk to take Rucker and possibly throw away the 2nd straight 3rd round pick. However, to assume that because they choose to disobey the law means they can't play football well is ridiculous. You don't get picked in the 3rd round if you can't play.

You dont get picked in the 3rd if you cant play?--See Akili Smith top of the 1st -see David Klingler top of 1st

AS far as TO goes he put up his numbers but in the process took down the 49'ers then demanded to go to the Eagles and took down the Eagles,they took a loss just to get rid of him-- character

As far as Lewis and Lewis go --

Jamaal Lewis just went to PRISON and came out and looked like $h!t--Character problem

Ray Lewis almost did LIFE for Murder and IMO got away with at least being an accessory to murder probably more.

Last time I looked the Ravens looked like $h!t I have read stories of Ray throwing a fit and wanting all the money even though he had just signed a contract he wanted a new one for more,more than Ed Reed the team be damned winning be damned.

The thing is ,the players like these guys like Dillon,Pickens,Lewis,Lewis,andTO they have a way of getting their numbers the team be damned, winning be damned,its all about them.

They sew trouble and descension by not following the rules setting a bad example for the younger players and undermining the coach.

Guys cry if they dont get the ball enough to get their numbers ect. even though it may not be the best game plan to do so.

If the team looses it the coaches fault /QB's fault/OC's fault becuase they didnt get them the ball enough.

[HairOnFire]

...accused of rape at CSU, took deal for a reduced charge of sexual harrasment (sentence deferred), transfered to USC...now this issue with his ex-girlie who HE got a restraining order against...? Wow.

Sorry, but something doesn't add up there. The rape accusation wasn't thrown out because Rucker plea bargained it down to a lesser charge. It was thrown out because the accuser admitted to lying to the police about what happened. That damaged her credibility to such a degree that the accusers lawyers were said to have approached Rucker with a reduced charge...one that made everything go away...almost guaranteeing he'd serve no jail time. Innocent or guilty I think I take that deal, and I imagine you would too if faced with the serious charge he was once accused of. And the fact that Rucker had previously gotten a restraining order against a woman who later accused him of spousal abuse smells real funny.

Probably not funny enough to prevent other people from convicting Rucker in the press or media though.

[BengalByTheBay]

Rucker's arrest had nothing to do with anything he has done since August of 2005. So, let's stop acting like he got drafted and went on a statewide crime spree. All of his priors dealt with women. This is just my opinion and not based on anything, but it seems to me that the Bengals simply don't care about things that don't seem like they will cause somebody to miss time. On the other hand, I believe they probably went out of their way to avoid drug related histories in this past draft. Does it seem like that to anybody else?

And before you ask for my head on a platter -- yeah, I know that slapping your girlfriend around is wrong. It seems to me like the incredible shock some of you are professing is a little ridiculous. I said it before and I'll say it again -- Corey Dillon had a domestic abuse arrest while he was a Bengal. What happened? He didn't miss a game and became born-again. Does that make him a saint -- hell no. Does it make Frostee McSlappy the devil? Well, you judge. But keep in mind that there are these events on every team in the league every season.

To go back to HOF's point -- what has happened since the draft with this guy? He got arrested for something that the DA sat on for the entire NCAA season and the national championship game. You can definitely make the point that he's likely to do this again -- and I might even agree -- but it's clear that the team knew about this and decided to take a shot on him. The fact that he was arrested means nothing at this point. I'll go out on a very small limb and say right now that the guy will miss no camp and no game time based on this thing. My opinion is it will be dismissed or plead down to community service. So, he's in the same boat as Justin Smith -- arrested and slapped on the wrist. Is slapping a woman around and worse than getting into a car drunk and threatening everybody on the road?

Like it or not, the Madieu Williams' & Carson Palmer's in this league are the exception. These guys play a game for a living, make huge cash, and get treated like rock stars. They're going to do a lot of stuff you and I wouldn't get away with. If you're going to say you won't root for a team that drafts guys like this then I challenge you to find a team that hasn't had at least one guy get arrested for domestic abuse in the last 12 months. Have fun rooting for the WNBA.

[BengalByTheBay]

[The thing is ,the players like these guys like Dillon,Pickens,Lewis,Lewis,andTO they have a way of getting their numbers the team be damned, winning be damned,its all about them.

They sew trouble and descension by not following the rules setting a bad example for the younger players and undermining the coach.

Guys cry if they dont get the ball enough to get their numbers ect. even though it may not be the best game plan to do so.

If the team looses it the coaches fault /QB's fault/OC's fault becuase they didnt get them the ball enough.

You're mixing apples & oranges. There are a lot of ways to exhibit bad "character" (whatever that subjective phrase means), but this thread is about criminal conduct. I would argue there are just as many criminals doing great things for their team and being touted as heros as there are guys with bad attitudes that hurt their team. These traits don't necessarily co-incide with criminal conduct. Corey Dillon wasn't a bad teammate because he hit his wife. He was a bad teammate because he was a bad teammate. Ray Lewis may be the worst "character" guy in the world, but you can't argue that he wasn't a tremendously effective teammate and leader. You can attribute his current dissention to the fact that his team lacks any vision and he's not happy that they're not winning. All these things are arguable, but I think it's both overly simplistic and hypocritical to argue that a guy being a jackass on his off time is always going to be a bad football player. I think it's almost more accurate to say that the bigger of a jerk (or criminal) he is associates more directly with him being a good player.

As for Frostee being a good or bad player, I hate USC so I didn't watch him at all. Just like every Bengals draft pick, however, I hope he's good until I see otherwise.

[walshfan]

I really dont care what the charges are against any of the players.

I dont know them.. I dont associate with them.. I just watch football.

I want the team to win...apparently Marvin does too as these issues dont seem to faze him like they do most of you ...

[schweinhart]

Just like every Bengals draft pick, however, I hope he's good until I see otherwise.

No doubt. Best case Frostee racks up sacks and is a monster vs. the run and the Bengals defensive braintrust looks like genius. Maybe Frostee can even bankroll a women's shelter or two and perhaps even walk the streets of Cincy dropping gold chunks out of his backside to clear up whatever image issues might remain for folks.

Worst case, he rots and the Bengals burned a 3rd round pick while picking up a wart about how they go about drafting. There are worse things, like a 3-13 record.

[fightontrojans]

I have not only been a friend of Frostee's for years, but I am a woman and I can tell you that these charges are outrageous. He does not "abuse women on a regular basis." He is not a "thug," he is not a "rapist," he is not a "thief." He is a wonderful guy, a great friend, and I have never once felt threatened or uncomfortable in his presence. These charges are being brought out of spite, and everyone who knows him and especially who her know this to be true. He is not only likeable, he is one of the greatest guys I know (including all those who are NOT football players). Take it from someone who actually does know the story and the people involved. Only one side is being shown. I think you should stop focussing on rumors and start thinking about the season ahead. The bengals obviously saw something great in Frostee if they drafted him third. He has to prove himself like every other rookie in the league and I believe that he will. Trashing his reputation before he even suits up for a game is only making your team look bad. Give him a chance and go bengals!

[Bungle in the Jungle]

I have not only been a friend of Frostee's for years, but I am a woman and I can tell you that these charges are outrageous. He does not "abuse women on a regular basis." He is not a "thug," he is not a "rapist," he is not a "thief." He is a wonderful guy, a great friend, and I have never once felt threatened or uncomfortable in his presence. These charges are being brought out of spite, and everyone who knows him and especially who her know this to be true. He is not only likeable, he is one of the greatest guys I know (including all those who are NOT football players). Take it from someone who actually does know the story and the people involved. Only one side is being shown. I think you should stop focussing on rumors and start thinking about the season ahead. The bengals obviously saw something great in Frostee if they drafted him third. He has to prove himself like every other rookie in the league and I believe that he will. Trashing his reputation before he even suits up for a game is only making your team look bad. Give him a chance and go bengals!

Frostee, is that you? Welcome to the Board!

I see that you obviously hired a proofreader to help with punctuation and spelling.

[fightontrojans]

Frostee, is that you? Welcome to the Board!

I see that you obviously hired a proofreader to help with punctuation and spelling.

[ArmyBengal]

How did you find this board and then just happen to make your first response in this particular thread ?? C'mon Frostee, is that you ??

WHODEY !!!

[fightontrojans]

How did you find this board and then just happen to make your first response in this particular thread ?? C'mon Frostee, is that you ??

WHODEY !!!

nope just thought bengals fans should know the real frostee

[ArmyBengal]

How did you find this board and then just happen to make your first response in this particular thread ?? C'mon Frostee, is that you ??

WHODEY !!!

nope just thought bengals fans should know the real frostee

For the sake of all that is good in Bengaldom, I hope your are for real and Frostee turns out to be a dominant player for the Bengals for many years !!!

WHODEY !!!

[HairOnFire]

I have not only been a friend of Frostee's for years, but I am a woman and I can tell you that these charges are outrageous.

I don't know if you're legit or not, but I'll listen to what you have to say. So let's hear it. What's the other side of the story?

[kingwilly]

...enlighten us.

[walzav29]

I wonder how things like this effect the contract negotiations? I would hope that the money is tied to conduct clauses. I don't give Nicholson or Rucker good odds on staying out of trouble for a year. I have never seen an instance where you give criminals a million dollars and they invest wisely. They look stupid for drafting these guys, they will look dumber by not covering themselves.

[HairOnFire]

I wonder how things like this effect the contract negotiations? I would hope that the money is tied to conduct clauses.

In Rucker's example, why should it effect his deal? Nothing has changed, right? We're talking about an old charge that the Bengals were already aware of and had dismissed as being potentially serious...so the only thing new that has happened is formal charges were finally made due to the sound of a ticking clock. The cops apparently felt they had to throw the case out altogether or dump it into the court system where it could be sorted out once and for all. ((Shrug))

The Nicholson matter is a little different as his charge came after being drafted, but both players were going to have contract provisions related to character inserted into their deals anyway. At least to the point that the new CBA will allow. Regardless, the AJ thing still sounds to me like a minor dustup between roommates who couldn't agree on the share of rent owed and how to get stereo equipment back without breaking glass out of a window. ((Shrug))

Bottom Line: Is it just me or do the charges in each example sound more serious than the acts that were committed?