derekshank Posted July 10, 2005 Report Share Posted July 10, 2005 I clearly haven't done the research you have hair... so I was wondering, do they do the stunt primarily on passing downs? It seems that what you've described (if I understand it correctly) will effectively take Smith out of position to stop the run on the sweep (where is the main place we struggled against the run last year). Stopping the run was one of the main reasons I heard we were moving him to that end. Just curious to hear your thoughts on whether that will play into it at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairOnFire Posted July 10, 2005 Report Share Posted July 10, 2005 I clearly haven't done the research you have hair... so I was wondering, do they do the stunt primarily on passing downs? I'm not sure how to answer that. The line stunts constantly whether the down and distance situations dictate pass or run. But if pressed I'd say the type of stunt I described was USUALLY featured on likely passing downs, but not always. Complicating matters further, the gaming was wasn't limited to 3rd down jailbreaks on pure passing downs. If it helps, on short yardage situations or 1st down snaps the Bengals typically limit their line movement to twists involving only two players. As for Smith, on the playmaking stunt I described...he's definately not running himself out of position. His primary role is outside containment and he actually breaks off his pass rush after gaining control of the edge. In fact, on the type of stunt I described the only true pass rusher is Clemons because the interior lineman have shifted hard left and settled into the same outside containment role as Smith. I'd describe it as a high risk stunt. If an offensive lineman is able to block Clemons after he clears the shifting defensive tackles there are no other D-lineman actively pass rushing. So it's boom or bust stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
losersaywha Posted July 10, 2005 Report Share Posted July 10, 2005 Can someone tell me how to post pictures Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derekshank Posted July 10, 2005 Report Share Posted July 10, 2005 I'd describe it as a high risk stunt. If an offensive lineman is able to block Clemons after he clears the shifting defensive tackles there are no other D-lineman actively pass rushing. So it's boom or bust stuff. Yeah, I think I understood that correctly then. I'm not really sure how I feel about that. If it was purely a 3rd down passing situation thing, I'd be okay with it(but then it would bea bit predictable). On the other hand, if you try it, and they run a sweep, it could potentially hurt us quite a bit. Meaning, I don't think I like it. Everyone already knows our rushing defense is our greatest weakness. We don't need to help them out. Very interesting stuff though. It'll be cool to watch for, and see how it plays out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schweinhart Posted July 10, 2005 Report Share Posted July 10, 2005 The line stunts constantly whether the down and distance situations dictate pass or run. It'd be interesting to see if any stats are kept league wide on stunts because I doubt there's a team that stunts more than the Bengals. A lot of the run stunts move the DTs and IMO that's the best that can be done to mask the deficiency of the DTs to overpower or out-technique blockers.How the Bengals use Bryan Robinson will impact how they use Justin in many situations. Robinson should be an upgrade over Langston Moore, who had a hard time stunting vs. run last year and couldn't quite keep his bullrush from petering out.In fact, on the season highlights show ML was tongue lashing Moore pretty good on the sidelines for playing too high.I'd much rather see the stunting used less if the Bengals in fact have the personnel now to challenge teams straight up for the most part. I think they might have the front 7 to do that now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairOnFire Posted July 10, 2005 Report Share Posted July 10, 2005 It'd be interesting to see if any stats are kept league wide on stunts because I doubt there's a team that stunts more than the Bengals. A lot of the run stunts move the DTs and IMO that's the best that can be done to mask the deficiency of the DTs to overpower or out-technique blockers. This touches directly on my motivation for repeatedly watching and taking notes on the D-line play. I wanted to see exactly how a Lewis defense differed from the strategies Dick LeBeau had used. Because oddly enough I used to complain loudly that the Bengals used to stunt LESS than any team I had ever observed closely. Obviously that's changed, but for the most part the stunting I observed is still limited to very conservative two-man twists. The exception that proves the rule? The playmaking stunt I described featuring Clemons from the LDE position. IMHO LeBeau never seemed to favor very much movement from any of his down lineman beyond swapping where his ends lined up. In Justin Smith's example it seemed to be an attempt to take better advantage of mismatches, but you could hardly say the tactic was an attempt to creat blocking confusion since flopping your ends usually takes place long before the snap of the ball. By comparison, as Schweinhart confirms, the level of stunting now observed under Lewis appears to be an attempt to create better opportunities for his less talented down lineman...a point I've repeatedly attempted to make in regards to the Bengals defensive ends. But I have to agree that this has not only resulted in more stunting from players like Duane Clemons, but players like John Thornton as well. Meanwhile, it's my opinion that Justin Smith has rarely been featured in stunts that are truly designed to free him from blockers. In fact, in the games I broke down most stunts that Smith was involved in tasked him with rubbing or scraping off the blocker of the DT he had lined up next to. Go figure, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schweinhart Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 Meanwhile, it's my opinion that Justin Smith has rarely been featured in stunts that are truly designed to free him from blockers. In fact, in the games I broke down most stunts that Smith was involved in tasked him with rubbing or scraping off the blocker of the DT he had lined up next to. Go figure, right? Part of that use of Justin under ML proly has to do with the DTs that would most likely stunt with him -- first Tony Williams then Langston Moore. Neither has got the quicks to do it well consistently IMO.But you gotta think that Justin is good enough to get free on his own and he does -- a lot -- even if a good part of the time he just winds up with a QB hurry or a hand on the QB w/o finishing off the sack.Also, Justin's back side pursuit is LB quality and a stunt could clog him up and take him out of the play when he might have otherwise been able to track down a ball carrier.I was excited when it was announced that Thornton was switching to RDT before it was announced that Justin was switching to LDE. I thought Thornton and Smith stunting together held a lot of promise due to Thornton's quickness. There were a couple games last year when Thornton did pop in at RDT.Thornton seems better suited to me as a 3-4 DE than a 4-3 DT but he does have the quicks to stunt, does get some leverage inside, does have some moves, and even can drop back into very, very short coverage for a zone blitz if needed.Anyway, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Justin moves between end positions. The Bengals got a lot of options with him, but I still think his best and primary role is at LDE where he should provide even better contain and pursuit vs. run and get more sacks on pass rush vs. RTs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengal4life Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 Hey Big-O I just got my 2004 highlights you sent me. My roomate and I watched them lastnight and I forgot how many great plays that went on last year. Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GROIIIDayton Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 bengal4life Posted on Jul 12 2005, 08:52 AM Hey Big-O I just got my 2004 highlights you sent me. My roomate and I watched them lastnight and I forgot how many great plays that went on last year. Thanks again. THe funny thing is I'm his roommate and you guys probably don't like me because I speak the truth unlike some of you homers.AND STOP GIVING ME THESE f**king WARNINGS BECAUSE IF YOU DON"T REALIZE I DON"T GIVE A s**t Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengal4life Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 I don't even know who you are GROIIIDayton. Why don't you get on another forum that excepts childs play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Orange Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 Thanks, Lifer..I was worried that the format may not work on everybody's DVD players...I sent out 14, it'll be interesting to see how many worked... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GROIIIDayton Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 Thanks Big Orange I like how you put the game show on afterwards CJ cracks me up...lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Orange Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 See GROIII, you and I can be friends...Would you like a copy...I've run out but I would give you my very own...no charge...PM me if interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GROIIIDayton Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 Thanks but i'm cool. Lifer is my roommate and we watched it last night. Also we played it in the playstation and it worked and that thing usually denies all kinds of formats. Lifer is on his period today so becareful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derekshank Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 AND STOP GIVING ME THESE f**king WARNINGS BECAUSE IF YOU DON"T REALIZE I DON"T GIVE A s**t It seems clear that you do care quite a bit, or you wouldn't have brought it up... just kidding...anyway GROIII, you are more than welcome here, but it does seem to me that on some topics this might not be the place for you.What I mean is, the reason I come here (and most likely a lot of the people who are here) is not so much to talk on a forum as much as it is a great place to get news and different views on the Bengals. Bengals.com sometimes goes days and weeks without a new article, and it takes a long time to dig up new infor. I rely on these guys to go dig up news from all sorts of places, and they do a great job. So this particular forum is primarily for newsworthy conversations, and when disagreements come around, I've noticed that most people (although not all) choose to use their abilities as mature people to deal with those differences in opinion as adults.You clearly have a love for forums that have come to characterize most sports forums, and that is for smack talking. I personally don't care for smack talking, which is why I prefer Bengalszone to any other forums I have seen. It has the "Smack Central" forum specifically designed for people who enjoy those kinds of discussions.So don't hear me say you are not welcome, as some others have hinted, or straight out said. However, I will say that because you choose to use this forum to talk smack, it tends to rub people the wrong way. If you don't care, you don't care. Good for you, but I would suggest you save your trash talk for the "Smack Central" forum. Just a suggestion. Take it with a grain of salt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GROIIIDayton Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 I don't talk smack I post what I think is true. I'm not going to run around saying the bengals are going to the superbowl like half of these people...sorry. We have had to many let downs in past years. I think they will be very good but I am not getting my hopes up too much. Defense has a lot to prove before I can even say the playoffs are a guarantee. I love how everyone posts articles so I don't have to go look for them, and thank you to everyone who does. I have just seen to many losing season to say once again "this is the year". A lot of people on here are probably newer bengals fans and it is hard for me to listen to them say we are going to be great when they weren't paying a lot of attention when we were 2-14. I try too expect the worse and hope for the best... I don't think anyone who remembers all the busts we've picked in the past could get on here and say Pollick is going to be a god. I love who we drafted yet I've loved who we've drafted some other years and we all remember those drafts. I want a superbowl as much as anyone I just think it is premature to talk about it...example the eagles.AND WHO THE f**k CAN GIVE ME A WARNING I"LL f**king TELL THEM HOW I FEEL ABOUT THE WARNING Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Orange Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 You make great points here GROIII (what does that stand for BTW...your initials?). Not to be wishy washy here, but I think I see both sides to this coin. On the one side there are fans who have been fans a long time (unlike me) and think we are really going to be special this year and don't really want to hear pessimistic, or in some people's opinion, realistic talk.On the other side there are people who have been fans a long time and have heard such rantings before which didn't pan out and you think...here we go again. And that's infuriating.And then there are newbies and band-wagon jumpers like myself who think that Marvin and everyone of his draft picks are all God's and steals.Well, nobody is right and everybody is right. The only thing that we have to be able to do is say...you can have all the opinions in the world, but you can't attack another individual for having disagreeable opinions.You can say there arguement is the stupidest thing you've ever heard...you just can't say that they are stupid (or far worse). This forum is being built by people with differing opinions, but there has to be that underlying respect and peace.This concludes my sermon today...now if you damn bastards will leave something in the damn offering plate...I'd sure appreciate it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derekshank Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 Fair enough... and I agree with you. We are not going to the superbowl, and although I think Pollack will be very good, if you look, I am one of the few who has been somewhat apprehensive about saying he's going to the hall of fame. I as well have seen a few too many Ki-Jana Akili Klingler picks.On the other hand, I tend to take the philosphy that you draw more flys with honey than vinegar. I disagree with a lot of people on this forum, and am always honest about how I feel, and also post what I think is true, but tend to make fewer enemies than some people do. Perhaps it's just a personality thing. Either way, you're welcome here GROIII, as long as you keep agreeing with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derekshank Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 P.S. good post Big O. My thoughts exactly, just more eloquent. The check for your offering plate is in the mail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schweinhart Posted July 13, 2005 Report Share Posted July 13, 2005 WTF Is it me or is the sh*t starting to get a little runny? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.