Bengals Defense line getting alot worse.

[HoosierCat]

But that kind of proves my point, right?

It would have if your point were that there are lots of people who agree and disagree with what the team does, depending on the circumstance. But you held that there is a "large number of members" who bash Brown and the team no matter what. That's simply not true. And I know it isn't true because I'm part of the crew that's banned the most annoying of them, guys like groundhog and barbarian.

Back on topic, to call a spade a spade as it were: yes, I am going to be critical when the best defensive line the team has boasted in quite some time loses key contributors who are replaced with free agent bargains and rookies while the team sits on a big pile of cap space. There is nothing knee jerk, irrational or Mike-Brown-hating about that; if any other team did that I would expect to find some of their fans unhappy about it too. And as I've said multiple times, I hope my concerns turn out to be unfounded. I hope Still, Thompson and Anderson team with a healed Dunlap to become the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. In other words, I will be absolutely thrilled to be wrong. On an internet forum, even.

[derekshank]

But you held that there is a "large number of members" who bash Brown and the team no matter what. That's simply not true.

Well, "large numbers" is subjective. But it's a very vocal group who would die before admitting that Mike Brown did something smart. And there are plenty in that group that come to mind immediately. ShulaSteakhouse,, CheeselandBengal, KingWilly, TJJackson, and BengalPimp all come to mind pretty quickly in addition to the guys you mentioned that you have banned. And I'm sure there are plenty others I'm forgetting.

So whether or not you consider that a "large number" or not, it's at the very least a vocal minority whose toxicity has worn thin over the last 8 years or so.

Why don't I just leave if I don't like it? That's a good question... and an option I have found myself considering more and more. But I enjoy a friendly Bengal debate - and for the time being I guess the enjoyment I get from that slightly outweighs the annoyance I feel toward the one-note song that is so often sung around here.

[ArmyBengal]

Why don't I just leave if I don't like it? That's a good question... and an option I have found myself considering more and more. But I enjoy a friendly Bengal debate - and for the time being I guess the enjoyment I get from that slightly outweighs the annoyance I feel toward the one-note song that is so often sung around here.

Honestly Derek, there have been times I thought I wanted more from the forum and recently went in search of that.

I joined a handful of other forums, some Bengals related, some simply sports related.

For the most part, it's all the same. You have those that you can quickly identify with and others that piss you off every time they put fingers to keyboard. Those that are in line with your thoughts and other that would rather be stupidly argumentative for the sake of arguing.

The biggest reason I keep coming back here is regardless of whether I agree with a posters opinion or whether I think they are a Mike Brown apologist or not, I like the members here from a discussion standpoint. I think there are some very football educated guys here and I enjoy reading their opinions.

I'm sure anyone could probably find that on another site, but from my recent experience, the grass really isn't greener.

In a few instances, it was quite browner if anything.

I get what you are saying though.

[membengal]

I have also for about a year gotten heavily involved in another board - army knows which one I would guess. I keep drifting back here as well hoping that maybe some of the worst of the knee-jerk-seeing-the-worst in every move will have abated with two playoff appearances in three years, but have not really found that.

Last off-season was acclaimed by most neutral observers as a huge win for the team. An unqualified win. I have no idea whether that will translate to more success on the field. Historically, it has not. But I see no reason for the reflexive slagging on EVERY move the Bengals make by a set on this board. It is tiresome. Over the past eight years, I have pretty much reached my fill of it. Derek has the right of it that there is a set who is never happy, and who will criticize the team no matter what they do. And, at some point, one gives up talking against that. I mostly lurk nowadays to read Derek, who is still willing to call it out. That's energy I no longer have.

[TJJackson]

In my (and perhaps by extension, the others also so named by Derek) defense, while I definitely can't stand Son-of-a-Genius and look anxiously forward to the day when he is no longer involved in the operations of this team, I have given some praise when I felt it was due.

The most obvious such case was the Palmer trade.

I know there have been a few other occasion as well, although I'm not going to search the forums to find them.

That said, if you take his entire body of work as "GM" -- he's been awful. The bad has by far outweighed the good while he has held the reins of the oxcart.

20+ years of piss-poor management - plus the exploitation of Hamilton county taxpayers, of which I am one - has pretty much ensured that he is in my eyes (and always will be) guilty until proven innocent. He does not (and will probably not ever) get the benefit of the doubt from me on anything; and given the body of the evidence, I think this treatment is quite fair.

[derekshank]

In my (and perhaps by extension, the others also so named by Derek) defense, while I definitely can't stand Son-of-a-Genius and look anxiously forward to the day when he is no longer involved in the operations of this team, I have given some praise when I felt it was due.

The most obvious such case was the Palmer trade.

If by giving Mike Brown credit you mean saying "He was lucky" and "Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in a while" - then yes. Mike Brown was given credit.

20+ years of piss-poor management - plus the exploitation of Hamilton county taxpayers, of which I am one - has pretty much ensured that he is in my eyes (and always will be) guilty until proven innocent. He does not (and will probably not ever) get the benefit of the doubt from me on anything; and given the body of the evidence, I think this treatment is quite fair.

Yep. That's the sentiment I'm referring to. You've essentially admitted that you don't judge moves on their own merit... because Mike Brown is already guilty.

I know the 90's sucked. Believe me. And I'm not asking you to forget about them - but they were over a decade ago and they bear very little resemblance to what the Bengals are currently doing.

Under Mike Brown's direction, this franchise has been to the playoffs 2 of the last 3 years (and 3 of the last 7). Very few teams in the NFL can boast better. We'd all like to end the drought and get a playoff win... but analysts applaud Mike Brown for the current direction of the team (Hell, Mike Brown was named executive of the year by Peter King, Michael Lombardi, and Mike Florio among others last season), and suggest that he's done a very good job over the last several years.

So the question remains... why is that so damned difficult to admit?

[ArmyBengal]

I can recall thinking at times that the Bengals were lucky in how the draft fell to them, but it can't be forgotten that the draft works that way sometimes. All teams get lucky that certain players fall to them. Anyone think DeCastro has a snowballs chance of falling all the way to the Steelers ??

Bottomline for me is that while I don't care for Mike Brown very much, I won't go out of my way to complain about the direction I currently think the team is headed in. In fact, I love the youth and talent of this team and think they will continue to have success. Will that translate into a Super Bowl someday ?? Who knows ?? I'll take it right now though.

[TJJackson]

Yep. That's the sentiment I'm referring to. You've essentially admitted that you don't judge moves on their own merit... because Mike Brown is already guilty.

Admiting, declaring, stating.....whatever word you like :-)

I don't think I am 'admitting' anything here because I don't think my thoughts on this matter are 'wrong'

But I do understand your point of view

I know the 90's sucked. Believe me. And I'm not asking you to forget about them - but they were over a decade ago and they bear very little resemblance to what the Bengals are currently doing.

Perhaps you are a more forgiving soul than I.

*shrug*

I yam what I yam

Under Mike Brown's direction, this franchise has been to the playoffs 2 of the last 3 years (and 3 of the last 7)

I just can't credit him with the recent upswing. I tend to look at "what has changed in the last 7 years that was different from the 13 before that" and I keep coming back to Marvin, not Mike. Assuming I have correctly identified the key change, I still have to give Mike credit for hiring the guy, though.

so there you go...I wrote that and did not die nor was it painful to do so :-)

Mike Brown was named executive of the year by Peter King, Michael Lombardi, and Mike Florio among others last season

That was entirely due to the Palmer theft trade

[derekshank]

I just can't credit him with the recent upswing. I tend to look at "what has changed in the last 7 years that was different from the 13 before that" and I keep coming back to Marvin, not Mike. Assuming I have correctly identified the key change, I still have to give Mike credit for hiring the guy, though.

Fine. You believe Mike Brown has given power to Marvin Lewis (whether that's true or not is anyone's guess). For the sake of argument, let's say it's true.

If Mike Brown is now uninvolved with all of the good things that go into building a winner, then he can't be your scapegoat for every roster decision you don't like. That sword cuts both ways. If you want to blame Mike Brown for the loss of Fanene/Rucker, you have to credit him for all the good players that are on the roster. You can't have it both ways.

Mike Brown was named executive of the year by Peter King, Michael Lombardi, and Mike Florio among others last season

That was entirely due to the Palmer theft trade

Entirely? Do you think he would have received such praise if the Bengals had gone 0-16 like so many experts predicted?

Mike Brown did get love for the Palmer trade... but mostly because the Bengals went to the playoffs without any of the benefits they received from that trade.

That's right. Drafting Andy Dalton, AJ Green, Jermaine Gresham, Geno Atkins, Michael Johnson, and Carlos Dunlap had a little something to do with it. Additionally, the Bengals defense was a top 10 unit - in large part because of the free agents/trades Mike Brown executed (Thomas Howard, Manny Lawson, Nate Clements, and Reggie Nelson). None of the 10 players I've mentioned had anything to do with Carson Palmer.

So either he's not a blind squirrel, or else Marvin Lewis is running the show. In either case, it's time to stop complaining about him.

[TJJackson]

If Mike Brown is now uninvolved with all of the good things that go into building a winner, then he can't be your scapegoat for every roster decision you don't like. That sword cuts both ways. If you want to blame Mike Brown for the loss of Fanene/Rucker, you have to credit him for all the good players that are on the roster. You can't have it both ways.

Clarification - I didn't mind the loss of Rucker at all - never liked the Slowman. Fanene I liked, albeit at the bargain rate we paid him, but realized he had recurring health issues and was not worth the money he was offered elsewhere. The guy we should (and could) have paid extra to keep was Joseph. If I am blaming SoaG for any personnel loss, it's JJoe.

Little bit of a fallacy here - you're implicitly saying that Mike Brown makes all the draft picks and selects who gets brought in for look-sees. I don't think he does. I think all he does is approve what others recommend. I'd bet big money he was told by the coaches they wanted to keep JJoe, but this was a contract matter, and ultimately, front office - SoaG - did not get the job done, probably because it would have cost them a ton of money, and SoaG likes his money, a lot.

Mike Brown was named executive of the year by Peter King, Michael Lombardi, and Mike Florio among others last season

That was entirely due to the Palmer theft trade

Entirely? Do you think he would have received such praise if the Bengals had gone 0-16 like so many experts predicted?

You're asking me to credit the 2011 season soley to SoaG's efforts. Can't do that. Gonna go with on-the-field personnel for 99.9% of that. That said, yes, I am certain you're right - he did indeed get credit for that. The difference here is - I do not think he should have gotten any credit for the team record. I think they succeeded despite him, not because of him.

Drafting Andy Dalton, AJ Green, Jermaine Gresham, Geno Atkins, Michael Johnson, and Carlos Dunlap had a little something to do with it. Additionally, the Bengals defense was a top 10 unit - in large part because of the free agents/trades Mike Brown executed (Thomas Howard, Manny Lawson, Nate Clements, and Reggie Nelson). None of the 10 players I've mentioned had anything to do with Carson Palmer.

Yes, but again, I think you are crediting SoaG too much for these, same as you appear to think I am crediting him nothing. Which come to think of it, yes, I am crediting him next to nothing. Bottom line is he has to have players on his team in order to have games which in turn makes him money. I think he pays the guys that his football guys tell him to pay, without caring personally if he pays guy A or guy B because he knows he will make money either way.

I suppose thats ultimately what I can give him credit for - he appears to be letting others make the football decisions now. Someone told him we can find a suitable replacement for Frostee at a lower cost, and so Frostee is gone, and indeed, now we have Jamaal who I don't think is great by any stretch but who I do think will adequately (no one can know for certain, only time will tell) replace Frostee. When it comes to items that are deeply steeped in business and profitability - like deciding to pay JJoe outrageously (yes, it would have been exhorbitant to do so) to keep him - he still fails the team more often than not.

I guess the whole blind squirrel thing is therefore inaccurate given how I now see things. He was trying hard for a long time, and his efforts produced major suckage. Now he is backing off and letting better football people (ie almost anyone by comparision to him) make the calls and thereby appearing to succeed. My own manager says all the time he only looks as good as we his workers make him look, and I think the same is true in this case. So he's no blind squirrel gathering the occasional nut he stumbles on - he's a rich idle squirrel who has other very talented squirrels do all his work for him. He's gathering plenty of nuts with this new way of doing things - err, not doing things

[derekshank]

I think he pays the guys that his football guys tell him to pay, without caring personally if he pays guy A or guy B because he knows he will make money either way.

So he's no blind squirrel gathering the occasional nut he stumbles on - he's a rich idle squirrel who has other very talented squirrels do all his work for him. He's gathering plenty of nuts with this new way of doing things - err, not doing things

If the above statements represent your stance, then you have no reason to blame him when the team isn't successful.

Either he's a hands-on owner and deserves credit, or he's a hands-off owner and simply signs the checks.

When things go well, you can say he has nothing to do with it... but you cannot then blame him when things go poorly. Yet that is the way many (yourself included) continue to operate. It is inconsistent and disingenuous.

[cincy9275]

all i know is mike brown hired marvin lewis.

[HoosierCat]

When things go well, you can say he has nothing to do with it... but you cannot then blame him when things go poorly. Yet that is the way many (yourself included) continue to operate. It is inconsistent and disingenuous.

I would only point out that such inconsistency isn't the province only of those who remain skeptical of Mike Brown. Take this thread, for example. Here we are told that we should be "loling" at those who complained about Fanene being cut because he got hurt. Clearly Mike Brown made the right decision and all us complainers should be ashamed!

Yet by this logic we should now be "loling" at Mike Brown for drafting Shaun Prater, signing Travelle Wharton and retaining Brandon Ghee, all of whom landed on IR today.

This, of course, would be ridiculous. But if injuries vindicate Brown's decisions, then they have to damn them as well, right?

[derekshank]

But if injuries vindicate Brown's decisions, then they have to damn them as well, right?

Well, the lolling has a lot more to do with the fact that so many were angry that MB didn't spend $4+ million/year on a guy who couldn't stay healthy while he was in Cincy. Fanene's current injury is just more of the same... which shows why he wasn't worth that much money. So it didn't require a crystal ball.

That's why MB was vindicated... which has nothing to do with an injured rookie who was drafted in the 5th round or an inexpensive free agent guard who had been pretty durable. It's not the same thing at all.

[HoosierCat]

But if injuries vindicate Brown's decisions, then they have to damn them as well, right?

Well, the lolling has a lot more to do with the fact that so many were angry that MB didn't spend $4+ million/year on a guy who couldn't stay healthy while he was in Cincy. Fanene's current injury is just more of the same... which shows why he wasn't worth that much money. So it didn't require a crystal ball.

By that logic, it didn't require a crystal ball to foresee Ghee getting hurt again. (Or, for that matter, Pacman.)

And what about letting the oft-injured Joseph walk while retaining the durable Hall? Oops.

Again, I await the commencement of loling @ Mike Brown.

[volcom69]

If they really think they need d-line help they should look at the eagles d-line when they cut someone. A lot of good solid guys there.

[membengal]

Considering bengals stockpiled about 8 cornerbacks, hoosier, i would say your example is dogs**t.

[derekshank]

But if injuries vindicate Brown's decisions, then they have to damn them as well, right?

Well, the lolling has a lot more to do with the fact that so many were angry that MB didn't spend $4+ million/year on a guy who couldn't stay healthy while he was in Cincy. Fanene's current injury is just more of the same... which shows why he wasn't worth that much money. So it didn't require a crystal ball.

By that logic, it didn't require a crystal ball to foresee Ghee getting hurt again. (Or, for that matter, Pacman.)

And what about letting the oft-injured Joseph walk while retaining the durable Hall? Oops.

Again, I await the commencement of loling @ Mike Brown.

Brandon Ghee is still on his rookie contract... so what's the complaint?

The Joseph/Hall example doesn't hurt my point. This is football, and injuries happen. But it's not good practice to spend lots of money on guys who routinely can't play.

But you win Hoosier. You and your comrades can bash Mike Brown unhindered by me. I don't want to do this anymore. This thread is the exemplification of an ethos that I have grown tired of. It's not fun anymore. I've asked Skyline to delete my account.

Enjoy the season everyone.

[Passepartout]

Still pre-season as hopefully they will find guys on there that could help the offense out with defense level playing skills.

[Sea Ray]

I just can't credit him with the recent upswing. I tend to look at "what has changed in the last 7 years that was different from the 13 before that" and I keep coming back to Marvin, not Mike. Assuming I have correctly identified the key change, I still have to give Mike credit for hiring the guy, though.

Then don't worry about who gets the credit. Just enjoy the upswing and move on. I, like most of you, have suffered through the travails of being a Bengal fan. We know why Mike Brown is the GM and we also know that he'll continue to be the GM. That ain't changin'. I find I'm a much happier person if I accept that and move on. If the Bengals for whatever reason can enjoy success and have good drafts, I don't care if it's due to MB or in spite of him. For better or for worse, he's here and will continue to and I won't let that fact bring down my enjoyment of Bengal football

[volcom69]

I just can't credit him with the recent upswing. I tend to look at "what has changed in the last 7 years that was different from the 13 before that" and I keep coming back to Marvin, not Mike. Assuming I have correctly identified the key change, I still have to give Mike credit for hiring the guy, though.

Then don't worry about who gets the credit. Just enjoy the upswing and move on. I, like most of you, have suffered through the travails of being a Bengal fan. We know why Mike Brown is the GM and we also know that he'll continue to be the GM. That ain't changin'. I find I'm a much happier person if I accept that and move on. If the Bengals for whatever reason can enjoy success and have good drafts, I don't care if it's due to MB or in spite of him. For better or for worse, he's here and will continue to and I won't let that fact bring down my enjoyment of Bengal football

Yep me too we as fans can't control who's in charge or who's brought in, so why worry about it. I will continue to cheer for this team no matter who comes or goes. We will all have our own opinions which is great but there just that opinions. Im just hoping that these new young guys work out for years to come and make watching football fun.

[TJJackson]

Well Derek, I really hope you don't leave.

I love reading your stuff, no matter whether I agree with it or not.

I think there is room here for those who'd be happy to erect a statue to honor him, and those who'd glady dig that six foot hole for him, and everyone in between those extremes. I am closer to the latter, you are closer to the former, and thats OK.

I mean, if we all agreed on everything, how boring would this place be?

Our best discussions here most often revolve around our (not just you and me - I mean everyone) differences of opinion, not our agreements

So I am hoping you do decide to stick around, as you have for several years already

[volcom69]

I'm hoping Derek dosnt leave as well! Always enjoyed reading his stuff.

[ArmyBengal]

Sometimes people just need a break.

While dicussions involving differences of opinion are nice, they can take a toll and irritate you as well.

I can only speak for myself, but i've taken a few days here and there and I always end up missing it.

[HoosierCat]

Sometimes people just need a break.

Ding. I've walked away before. (Much to the annoyance of Army & the other mods!) There's a reason we come back energized from vacations.