Not piling on old Mike Brown

[HoosierCat]

Skyline I think you are getting closer to the point. Don't give Mike Brown credit for the successful decisions that have been made this year in drafting, free agency, and etc., but do give him credit for FINALLY listening to other people and delegating some of the teams personnel decisions. I can live with that. Yes one decisions leads to the others, but the day to day decisions that are being made are much more difficult than one person giving into their stubbornness and admitting they aren't the best football related decisions maker. Let's all hope that this trend continues.

On the other hand, all we have to base this off of is speculation.

In the news conference following the Palmer trade, Lewis said that Mike Brown was far more patient than he would have been. In the end, we really have no idea what's going on behind the scenes. All we know for sure is that Brown is responsible one way or another.

FWIW we had Brad Johansen on the radio show tonight and we asked him about what changed vis-a-vis the front office, Marvin's responsibilities, Mike stepping back, etc. and his answer was, "not much." He said that there was no deal in January to give Marvin more say or anything like that and that the two stuck together mostly because they had a comfortable relationship and the lockout was looming. He credits a lot of the Bengals' success to the lockout, which he thinks evened the playing field and rewarded teams who were the best at putting stuff together on the fly. "Sometimes when you do that, magic happens," he said.

[Spor_tees]

Skyline I think you are getting closer to the point. Don't give Mike Brown credit for the successful decisions that have been made this year in drafting, free agency, and etc., but do give him credit for FINALLY listening to other people and delegating some of the teams personnel decisions. I can live with that. Yes one decisions leads to the others, but the day to day decisions that are being made are much more difficult than one person giving into their stubbornness and admitting they aren't the best football related decisions maker. Let's all hope that this trend continues.

On the other hand, all we have to base this off of is speculation.

In the news conference following the Palmer trade, Lewis said that Mike Brown was far more patient than he would have been. In the end, we really have no idea what's going on behind the scenes. All we know for sure is that Brown is responsible one way or another.

FWIW we had Brad Johansen on the radio show tonight and we asked him about what changed vis-a-vis the front office, Marvin's responsibilities, Mike stepping back, etc. and his answer was, "not much." He said that there was no deal in January to give Marvin more say or anything like that and that the two stuck together mostly because they had a comfortable relationship and the lockout was looming. He credits a lot of the Bengals' success to the lockout, which he thinks evened the playing field and rewarded teams who were the best at putting stuff together on the fly. "Sometimes when you do that, magic happens," he said.

So what your saying is...this year is simply an anomaly and after this year when players start demanding more money because of their great play, Brown is going to turtle up and let them leave. What you just said, could have been the absolute worst words I could have heard about this situation. I would have rather heard that Mike Brown made all of his decisions this year with a magic 8 ball (not a Jerome Simpson 8 ball, but the toy one) than to say what you did. Honestly I don't believe it myself.

Like Bill Parcells once said, "How do you expect me to cook, if you don't let me shop for the ingredients?" I still believe Mike Brown gave into some of Marvin's demands before he signed back with the Bengals.

[skyline]

Skyline I think you are getting closer to the point. Don't give Mike Brown credit for the successful decisions that have been made this year in drafting, free agency, and etc., but do give him credit for FINALLY listening to other people and delegating some of the teams personnel decisions. I can live with that. Yes one decisions leads to the others, but the day to day decisions that are being made are much more difficult than one person giving into their stubbornness and admitting they aren't the best football related decisions maker. Let's all hope that this trend continues.

On the other hand, all we have to base this off of is speculation.

In the news conference following the Palmer trade, Lewis said that Mike Brown was far more patient than he would have been. In the end, we really have no idea what's going on behind the scenes. All we know for sure is that Brown is responsible one way or another.

FWIW we had Brad Johansen on the radio show tonight and we asked him about what changed vis-a-vis the front office, Marvin's responsibilities, Mike stepping back, etc. and his answer was, "not much." He said that there was no deal in January to give Marvin more say or anything like that and that the two stuck together mostly because they had a comfortable relationship and the lockout was looming. He credits a lot of the Bengals' success to the lockout, which he thinks evened the playing field and rewarded teams who were the best at putting stuff together on the fly. "Sometimes when you do that, magic happens," he said.

So what your saying is...this year is simply an anomaly and after this year when players start demanding more money because of their great play, Brown is going to turtle up and let them leave.

Why would you assume that? I think Brown has done a good job of re-signing people to fair deals when they deserve it and letting them walk when the price grows too high. His worst failures in the past have always been in loyalty to staff that underperform, poor draft choices, and in taking risks on guys with questionable character.

My biggest concern is with all of the one-year deals we have this season. If the Bengals continue to have success this year, then there's no way we can afford to bring them all back. But, I guess that's where those 9 picks in the first 3 rounds over the next two seasons come in. Thanks, Mike!

[HairOnFire]

As I understand it Schefter claims Brown was interested in Mallet early on, but by the time the draft occured had shifted to Dalton due to input from his coaches. In short, the type of thing that happens again and again in every draft.

So why was it considered a rumor worth printing in the first place?

Perhaps so Schefter could better appeal to delightfully dips**tted Bengal fans who seemed adamant about denying Mike Brown the credit he deserves even after making a very popular choice. And by floating a stupid rumor about the Bengals wanting a player they actually showed no interest in Schefter has given every Bengal fan a great gift. That being, the opportunity to rave about a draft pick while still bitching about Mike Brown. And that's the kind of thing that goes over very big in the River City.

As for the trade rumors involving Palmer, as Searay points out....Schefter's latest claim, made just this weekend, flatly contradicts his own previous claims. Which I admit is par for the course when it comes to rumors, right? But it also points out how inconsistent Schefter has been when reporting Bengal related rumors, prompting SeaRay to wonder aloud if Bengal fans should trust Schefter.

You kill me how you will argue so hard to give Mike Brown credit when something good happens, when everything points towards someone else making the decision. How you can stare in the face of 19 years of poor decisions and call them meaningless after this one offseason. Credit needs to be given to where credit is due. Mike Brown simply giving in to his coaches demands is not worth giving credit for the entire decision. Who knows how many other decisions this offseason should be given to Marvin, Zimmer, or Gruden.

So if you want to continue to play the Kevin Bacon game to connect all the dots to end with giving Mike Brown credit for everything, then go right ahead.

Your response points out perfectly why I describe some Bengal fans as "delightfully dips**tted". It sounds so much nicer than calling someone a "hater" or a "fugtard".....although those terms are probably more accurate.

Regardless, you just wrote another stupid rant that contradicts the very points you try to make. For example, you claim I'm engaging in some Kevin Bacon game of connect the dots, but I'm not. Rather, I'm simply using the very same 1-Step standard Mike Brown haters have clung to for years. That everything that happens on his watch is ultimately his responsibility.

And if the above is true, and I admit it is, then I have no reason to play a game of connect the dots since there's only one dot to consider. But things are tougher for you. As a hater you're now forced to play a game of connect the dots precisely because you're still attempting to explain what happened as just a matter of dumb luck instead of the direct result of actions taken that you didn't support.

Point blank, Mike Brown was right, you were wrong, and I doubt luck played any role in either of those outcomes. (Especially the latter.)

As far as the Dalton rumor goes, you now find yourself spewing anger and accusations using rumors based upon a sequence of events that....(wait for it)....didn't actually happen.

You can look it up. The Bengals drafted Andy Dalton, a player who may not have been Mike Brown's first choice, but who besides a Mike Brown hater really gives a crap about that? After all, the draft evaluation process is an ordeal that plays out over months, and not only do opinions change over time....that's the way the system is supposed to work. In fact, if opinions about players don't change during the evaluation process it's actually hard proof someone isn't doing their job.

Last point. Your entire rant seems based upon your feelings that by drafting Dalton over Mallet we now have proof of a shift in power within the Bengals. In response, I hereby suggest you're a bit of an idiot, in part because your rant suggests Mike Brown has NEVER listened to his coaching staff before. Yet several ex-Bengal head coaches have admitted Mike Brown almost always defers to his coaching staff on which players to draft, and typically limits his veto power to players drafted very early in the 1st round.

[Spor_tees]

Hair your basis for your whole rant goes firmly against the complaints that Bengal coaches have had in the past that Mike Brown makes personnel decisions WITHOUT the coaches input. You don't have to look far back to see an example of this. Chris Henry was brought back to the Bengals against Marvin's wishes. It's also been said that Marvin made it a point to demand more say so in matters for him to sign his last contract to coach the Bengals.

So what is your reasoning behind the 180 degree turn around of Mike Brown? A change in his multi-vitamin? Maybe he started taking Gingko Baloba? Until you can give a good reason why Mike Brown has all of a sudden turned into this super genius GM that is making all the right moves, I have to believe that more of this success is in part to the coaches and not him. So no I don't have to play connect the dots because I already know that the coaches talked Mike Brown into drafting Dalton instead of Mallet.

[derekshank]

Dear HairOnFire,

You are right. In fact, you have been right about Mike Brown for quite some time (I am proud to admit that I have been on that bandwagon for several years myself).

Better yet, most people now agree with you. There are a myriad of articles written by columnists over the last several weeks praising Mike Brown for his draft practices, free agent signings, and his attitude toward the Carson Palmer situation. Seemingly every unbiased observer is able to conclude that Mike Brown has been making good decisions for several years and has this team going in the right direction.

This leads me to the reason I am writing this post (and the reason this thread even exists). The only people left to discuss Mike Brown's so-called "ineptitude" are Bengal fans who refuse to accept what can be plainly seen by anyone who cares to look. But as you would say... there's the rub. Many Bengal fans don't care to look. They are creatures of habit. Mike Brown makes for a great scapegoat and an even better piñata.

In short, while I enjoy seeing you dismantle nonsensical arguments, I'm afraid you are wasting your time. These people are anchoring and will not be swayed by logic or reason.

Of course, I'm sure you are aware of this. I applaud your effort to continue fighting the good fight against, as you put it, the "delightfully dips**tted" who will bitterly cling to their hatred of Mike Brown... rationality and sanity be damned.

For my part, I've chosen to ignore these people, as it appears they have become a minority. An uninformed and vocal minority. Perhaps such folks should be told that this is a quality they share with Steeler fans.

[Spor_tees]

Derek how can you say he has been making the right move for several years? He has had 2 winning season in 19 years. If we look back I can give you two or more wrong decisions for every good move he has presumably made. Hair, and now you, continue to give him credit for all the good moves this year, when obviously something has changed. Do you think Marvin would have waited until his contract ran out with the Bengals if there wasn't some kind of hang up? It has been rumored for years under Marvin's tenure that he wasn't happy not having enough say-so with the teams personnel decisions. So we look to today, where Marvin did come back and now some good moves are being made. Coincidence, I think not. You can take the easy way out if you want and ride the Mike Brown train that has just now left the station after 19 years of ineptness, or you can open your eyes and realize that Mike Brown's best move was letting someone else make the moves.

Good move: Drafting Andy Dalton

Bad Move: Almost every first round draft pick in the 90's and several in the 00's

Good move: Hiring Gruden

Bad move: Hiring Breshnahan, Bratkowski, Schula, Coslet...

Good move: Signing Clements, Lawson, Howard

Bad move: Signing Antonio Bryant...yeah I don't even have to name anymore after him, that was an $8 Million dollar bust that lasted all of a couple training camp practices.

[membengal]

Co-sign derek's letter.

[Spor_tees]

Co-sign derek's letter.

The three amigos ride again. It's back to the bullying by the numbers versus true discussion. It's like when I called out HoF for his Bobby Williams stats that he was the top ranked RG last year and in the top 5 in the NFL for the last 3 years. He couldn't provide a source. Yet time and time again he calls other out if they can not provide concrete evidence for their arguments. Even in this discussion he contends that Mike Brown deserves all the credit, when I can show more concrete proof than he can.

I think the most funny thing to take from this, has been over several years of reading HoF's post (most of which were arguments against Hoosier and Steakhoue), he has gone from the stance, "There is no reason to continue calling for Brown to step down or hire a GM, because he is so stubborn and it won't happen. Either be a fan of the Bengals and except the fact that Mike Brown is an owner with poor football IQ, or move on." Yet now he believes Mike Brown is a football savant who is making all the right moves, and claiming that he called it all along. That just doesn't make sense. You can't flip flop your feelings for Mike Brown and then claim victory. Well you can, and unless someone calls you out on it, you can get away with seeming to get it right.

Show proof and make me wrong. Prove you are right and I'll concede. I'm not such an ass that I will argue something that is black and white, but please don't throw up fake facts to try to smoke over an argument. You know that 42% of all percentages are made on the spot?

[HairOnFire]

It's like when I called out HoF for his Bobby Williams stats that he was the top ranked RG last year and in the top 5 in the NFL for the last 3 years. He couldn't provide a source.

Please forgive my asking, but how's a chump like you going to call out anyone? It seems to me the best you can seem to manage is to cast a little bit of dick-headed doubt on the information that others post, myself included.

Regardless, as mentioned numerous times previously, the information you seek can be found within the subscriber content at Pro Football Focus.

And who knows? Maybe if your search is successful you might learn what I already know, and then return to us a little less stupid than you currently are.

[Spor_tees]

It's like when I called out HoF for his Bobby Williams stats that he was the top ranked RG last year and in the top 5 in the NFL for the last 3 years. He couldn't provide a source.

Please forgive my asking, but how's a chump like you going to call out anyone? It seems to me the best you can seem to manage is to cast a little bit of dick-headed doubt on the information that others post, myself included.

Regardless, as mentioned numerous times previously, the information you seek can be found within the subscriber content at Pro Football Focus.

And who knows? Maybe if your search is successful you might learn what I already know, and then return to us a little less stupid than you currently are.

And there's the rub. Instead of admitting you were wrong you decide to start a mini-tirade trying to deflect the heat off yourself onto me. I found where you got your info and what you said, and what it was, is two different things. Bobbie Williams graded out as the #1 pass blocker among Guards in the NFL, but because of his less than stellar run blocking, he graded out 6th overall. 6th overall not only makes your statement that he was ranked #1 in the NFL last year wrong, but also your mention that he has been in the top 5 the last three years.

So instead of trying to belittle me, if you would have shown some humility, you might have been able to keep a little more respect. You can't just mish-mash facts together to help yourself win an argument, and quite honestly with your response here I can't see how other can respect such actions either. I know here soon the two guys riding on your coat tails will rush in to your defense, one of which I expects as much from, the other I thought could think for himself. Alas I am done arguing about this with you, you have flip flopped your opinion on Mike Brown to make yourself look right, when in fact the the only thing you were right about was Mike Brown's handling of the Carson Palmer situation. Even with the Carson Palmer situation a blind man would have pulled the trigger on a trade that the Raiders put on a tee for him to knock out of the ballpark.

[HairOnFire]

The three amigos ride again. It's back to the bullying by the numbers versus true discussion.

What's the matter, Bunky? Feeling picked on again? Tired of always being called stupid by others? Well take that dick out of your mouth and start acting like someone who actually deserves to be called BallBreaker. Grow a pair. Rage.

Yet now he believes Mike Brown is a football savant who is making all the right moves, and claiming that he called it all along. That just doesn't make sense.

My feelings about Mike Brown haven't changed a bit, and that includes my belief that he isn't a football savant or the worlds greatest GM. In fact, you can neatly sum up my feelings for Mike Brown by saying that my defense of his record is based upon dinks like you going way too far with your criticism. If you weren't so utterly stupid about all things Mike Brown I doubt anyone would feel compelled to respond to your blithering noise.

You can't flip flop your feelings for Mike Brown and then claim victory.

Well, let's be fair. I haven't claimed victory at all. Rather, without any prompting from me our boy Shank declared me the victor and then he proudly planted my battle flag in your empty skull.

Show proof and make me wrong. Prove you are right and I'll concede.

The funniest thing about all of this is how you actually seem to believe the opinion of a biased person matters to me.

[HairOnFire]

Instead of admitting you were wrong you decide to start a mini-tirade trying to deflect the heat off yourself onto me.

I'm sorry, but what heat is there on me? You're not seriously suggesting your crap rant qualifies as heat, are you?

I found where you got your info and what you said, and what it was, is two different things.

What's that? You now say you found information that only a few minutes ago you implied I had made up? Well, that would make you a liar, wouldn't it?

So instead of trying to belittle me, if you would have shown some humility, you might have been able to keep a little more respect.

Sorry, but with all sincerity I have to admit I've always felt you were a huge a**h*** and one of the dumbest posters online. And there's the rub because when little s**ts like you accuse me of being dishonest I sometimes have trouble hiding my true feelings.

[Horsemen]

There are already reports that Lewis and Gruden had to talk Brown out of drafting Ryan Mallet and instead drafting Dalton.

There are rumors that Jay Gruden pushed hard for Andy Dalton to captain his Offense. Gruden, not Lewis. The only ones i'm seeing bringing Lewis name into it are the ones with this fantasy scenario in their minds that Marvin Lewis is secretly the GM.

I really am starting to wonder if Marvin didn't approach Mike Brown during the negotiations of his new deal and say, "Look Mike, I know you are a proud stubborn man, so this is what I propose. Let me make the major personnel decisions, and if they work out you can take the credit for it, and if they don't work out, you can just say it was a move that I asked for." How else can you explain Mike Brown finally listing to someone other than the voice in his head after 19 years?

As others have stated, Mike Brown has listened to others and been open to input since day one. That said, Christ, really? This fantasy AGAIN? It seems to creep up every year, that Lewis grew a pair and went running into Mikes office making demands and Mike caved.... Until some of those ideas don't pan out as hoped for in which case the Lewis fanclub will be claiming Brown pulled rank and FINALLY for the 10th year in a row Lewis will have "taken over the team." He hasn't, he won't and thank the Gods for that.

The reality is we started turning over the draft a few years prior to Lewis being hired. That briefly stopped happening the first time Lewis supposedly took control and we started drafting every moron with a rap sheet. Interesting that when Brown "forced" Henry back apon Lewis and Lewis supposedly lost this power we started drafting even better than usual. It's all coincidence I am certain although it does hold more weight than this delusion people hold that Lewis is GM'ing this team.

Back to the drafting, the reality of the matter is slightly less exciting than the Lewis scenario. See the change goes back to about a decade ago. Previous to that we had one scout period who is now retired and part time. To compensate for that Mike Brown was using Mel Kiper's scouting reports in the 1990's. Eventually he realized what an idiot Kiper is. From there he hired a younger fulltime scout and several consultants. Little known fact is these part time consultants have their own scouting teams, guys looking to break into the NFL working for them. It isn't perfect but it's improving as the years go on. He also changed his philosophy slightly at the behest of Duke Tobin several years ago and in addition to their scouting they also take advantage of various high level independent scouting reports from Mike Mayock, Todd McShay, Charlie Casserly, Dave-Te` Thomas and so on. That is information that came from the mouths of two separate NFL scouts from two other NFL teams who interact with Tobin and our consultants at Pro days, the combine and so on.

As for this other fantasy that Brown just caved to Marvins demands.... Why exactly would he have? The Lewis supporters keep forgetting one key fact of all of this, Lewis tried to test free agency. There was zero demand for him as a head coach and only one team, the 49ers inquired about taking their vacant DC job. There was no reason for Mike Brown to cave to anything as Lewis has zero bargaining power. Not to mention Zimmer is already employed here and word on the street was Brown was prepared to promote Zimmer if Lewis didn't sign on the dotted line within a certain time frame. Marv's options were to take a DC job for alot less pay and admit his failure, go home and scratch his nuts every Sunday or take whatever Brown offered him and return. He came back with his tail tucked between his legs at that point and took the offer Brown had on the table. No caving occurred by Mike Brown.

Last but certainly not least? Lewis has had an amount of personnel say all along, and contrary to the "golly gee Marv would make a great GM" bulls**t Bengals fans love to spout his personnel decisions have been worse than his coaching decisions. For reference see: Pulling for Willie Anderson to be demoted or cut so his pet project Stacey Andrews could start and kick off the chain of events causing Palmer to walk, opting to have Rudi cut so his other project, "his player" Chris Perry could start, Chad remaining on this team, Evan Mathis being benched and walking DESPITE grading out as the superior LG because Marv's latest pet Nate Livings is the starter come hell or high water and so on. Be careful what you ask for in the Marvin Lewis for GM business, you just might one day get it and you WILL regret it.

[Spor_tees]

Like I said, I have grown tired of arguing this with you. You have been shown to provide false facts to represent your arguments and then when called upon it you go into a full defensive mode where you spew nothing but hatred out of your mouth. Has your verbal schoolyard bullying puffed up your chest enough for today? And yes on many occasions you have proclaimed you were right about Mike Brown all along. Which as I said makes little sense. So if the Bengals have a good season once every 10 years you are all of a sudden right? Hey what ever helps you sleep at night. In fact if you want make a whole thread saying how pathetic I am and calling me every name in the book, if it helps keep you from hurting yourself. I know where I stand, and I know I proved you to be a liar, so that is all I ever need.

[alleycat]

Point blank, Mike Brown was right, you were wrong, and I doubt luck played any role in either of those outcomes. (Especially the latter.)

LMAO.

[Spor_tees]

And yes I knew all along you were full of it about Bobbie Williams and then I decided to take the time to actually look it up. So what again is your defense for being a liar? All of a sudden I'm the reason for you being a liar? Really? That's your excuse? REALLY? The best excuse for you telling a lie to win an argument is my fault? Seriously?

[HairOnFire]

I know here soon the two guys riding on your coat tails will rush in to your defense, one of which I expects as much from, the other I thought could think for himself.

Maybe it's just me, but I think you should have the balls to call those you intend to insult by their names.

Alas I am done arguing about this with you...

If you're done then Derek was right. I am the winner. And of course that means you're the loser. But judging from your anger you've already figured that one out for yourself.

So good luck with that.

[Earendil]

I know I'm new here, but can we save the arguing for those Steelers fans?

[Spor_tees]

Naglfar

To your points I would say this. I would believe what Adam Schefter says over pretty much all the talking heads on tv. The man has a lot of contacts. The other thing I believe is this, Marvin likes to delegate responsibility to his coaches that work one on one with the guys. For example the idea to cut Willie and the idea to let Mathis walk was more on the shoulders of Alexander than Marvin. Marvin might have had the last say, but he is going to tend to stick with what his coaches feel.

As far as blaming Brown's poor draft choices on Mel Kiper, come on man. There were many times when Kiper would question Bengal picks. One in particular was the Levi Jones pick. The Bengals took him 10th and Kiper said he had him valued in the 20's. There had been whispers for quite sometime that Marvin wanted more control. Many say that part of Carson Palmer's demands 2 years ago was that Marvin get more control. This isn't a new issue, but now that Marvin thought enough about it to actually test free agency while Brown kept dangling a contract extension in front of him, says a lot. You have to eventually believe where you smell smoke, there is a fire.

[membengal]

I am not sure how to respond. I think I am "coattails", which I might make my new name.

I am also bemused that I am "bullying" for agreeing with the eloquent take of others. I am not sure what else to add. I also agree with Searay on this. Is that bullying?

I am with those who state that the simple logic problem of if-all-the-s**t-is-Mike-Brown's-fault then, ergo, all-the-good-stuff-must-inure-to-his-credit-too.

Not sure why stating facts is bullying. Or agreeing with those who state facts is same.

Speaking of which, I find myself enjoying the cut of Naglfar's gib, and eagerly await him also being called a bully for stating facts.

Finally, don't the Mike Brown bashers ever grow tired? Jesus. This is as unreal a turn around as one might have imagined for this team. To twist into pretzels to avoid noting that he might have a hand in that is simply brain dead stupid.

[HairOnFire]

Like I said, I have grown tired of arguing this with you.

Exactly. And because you're tired of defending your own stupidity you've decided to end it all by calling me a liar while pointing fingers at Shank and Memphis and anyone else who might have called you an a**h***. But in my defense, who HASN'T called you as a**h***?

[Spor_tees]

I know here soon the two guys riding on your coat tails will rush in to your defense, one of which I expects as much from, the other I thought could think for himself.

Maybe it's just me, but I think you should have the balls to call those you intend to insult by their names.

Alas I am done arguing about this with you...

If you're done then Derek was right. I am the winner. And of course that means you're the loser. But judging from your anger you've already figured that one out for yourself.

So good luck with that.

Why would I have to name names? It's obvious to anyone on this forum. While one was away on temporary vacation, and the other put himself on vacation, you came back to the forum like someone broke your favorite bong. I could literally taste your tears through my computer screen. It was a fresh Chinese flavor of sweet and salty, with a side order pathetic.

[Spor_tees]

Like I said, I have grown tired of arguing this with you.

Exactly. And because you're tired of defending your own stupidity you've decided to end it all by calling me a liar while pointing fingers at Shank and Memphis and anyone else who might have called you an a**h***. But in my defense, who HASN'T called you as a**h***?

No you are the liar, and I can prove it, you can't disprove it. My only qualm with them is that they blindly defend you like a little Bengalszone clique. Not just in the thread but over and over again.

[membengal]

I am curious how the new admin ban stick works. I hope it isn't employed here, because I enjoy the fresh exchange of ideas on occasion, even with the terminally stupid. And sportees, you remain terminally stupid.