Carson Palmer Thread

[kingwilly]

Wow.

Just found out after being buried in a mtg.

Good on mike brown for not being the panicky bitch so many wanted him to be.

Oh, and willy? You are being a dick. You were wrong throughout. Just admit it and move on.

I'm not trying to be obtuse or a dick. I just would like the board to acknowledge that this is not a sweeping master plan. This was pure unabated luck.

Have things changed? Is this a sign? Maybe. I'd still like to see something tangible, like a playoff win, before we start taking our pants off for Grandpa Mike.

[kingwilly]

Stop freaking out.

Who is freaking out? It seems to me like you are scrambling to explain away a successful move.

Of course that one move has nothing to do with why this team is currently having success. It has everything to do with the draft picks and free agents Mike Brown signed. Right?

And now, he has even more draft picks and cap space to work with. Right?

In other words... Mike Brown's performance is far better than you'll admit. But that's alright. It's obvious that you're wrong. But by all means... keep scrambling. It's entertaining to watch.

As for the current success, at 4-2 and better than any of us could have bet for, yes, for that things are aimed true.

For the Carson trade, I'm just not about to anoint Mike Brown as the second coming because he successfully planned for and captured a lightning strike. I'm not scrambling, I'm looking at the thing as a tremendous gamble that paid off. Good for everyone!!! Hooray!!! Yippeee!!! They can get some amazing players with two extra r1 picks, that's a fact!!! But what I won't do is call this anything more than absolute luck in its highest form. And for those who cannot understand that this kind of luck cannot be planned or calculated or anticipated, then keep on dreamin' and buying those lotto tickets.

[ct_bengal]

how can you not like this move, definitely a guard and rb early in next years draft!

[HairOnFire]

To HoF: Accepted "Peanuts"? sure... because you say so, it must be true. The understanding of what was being offered were in-line with Carson's value. How is that bad? Rather than take the value, and get the team better, faster, SoP sat on his hands (ok, fine) and then got hugely lucky!

But doing things your way wouldn't have made the Bengals better since they got more for Palmer than you would have accepted. And trading Palmer earlier wouldn't have made the Bengals better faster since none of the draft compensation would have come any sooner. Plus, the Bengal players and coaches have demonstrated how they haven't let the Palmer situation be a distraction. In fact, they've used it for motivation and to improve unity.

Your whole "he sat on his hands and got lucky" rant is just one more unneeded example of a Bengal fan happily choking on his own s**t rather than give Mike Brown credit for anything.

So yeah, choke on it.

[princeton]

Oakland likely to play in Cincy in 2012

[Sea Ray]

Wow.

Just found out after being buried in a mtg.

Good on mike brown for not being the panicky bitch so many wanted him to be.

Oh, and willy? You are being a dick. You were wrong throughout. Just admit it and move on.

I'm not trying to be obtuse or a dick. I just would like the board to acknowledge that this is not a sweeping master plan. This was pure unabated luck.

Have things changed? Is this a sign? Maybe. I'd still like to see something tangible, like a playoff win, before we start taking our pants off for Grandpa Mike.

Why can't you see that it wasn't luck? Hair and others have predicted this for months. The thinking was: hold onto Carson, leverage him, sell high and wait for someone to overpay. Because the Bengals held all the cards (time) it was bound to happen for them. If it was luck then why did so many fans say "wait until someone offers a #1. Until that happens, let him rot"

Just because we couldn't forsee the exact team and circumstances doesn't make it luck. MB made his own luck here

[kingwilly]

No, here are the most important parts of understanding how unlikely, and how amazing lucky this deal is.

For those who refuse to give credit where credit is due please read to following and pay particular attention to the bits in bold as they relate specifically to actions taken by Brown that his critics would NOT have taken.

Look what Palmer did for Brown

Future bright for Bengals, future now for Raiders Andrew Brandt

</p>

So much for my column today about the trading deadline being a dud

As I asked in my previous column about the showdown between Carson Palmer and Mike Brown, "What Can Brown do for Carson?", the answer is reportedly "send him to the Raiders for an unexpected bounty."

I tried to give some insight into Brown in the article: how he is stubborn and obstinate, mocked in league circles and seen as frustrating to deal with and out of touch by players and agents. I also felt that Palmer and agentDavid Dunn were unfortunately on the wrong side of the leverage equation in this staredown: Brown would make Palmer sit rather than allow he and Dunn to force a trade through a sham retirement.

What I nor anyone else did not expect -- including Palmer and Dunn -- was that another team would offer a stunning package to secure Palmer in a trade. With the offer reported to be a 2012 first-round pick and a 2013 second-round pick that could become a first, Brown had played the Palmer situation to maximum advantage; it was time to make a deal.

In sum, Brown did the following: accepted Palmer's retirement, placed him on a reserve list where he sat unpaid, drafted a replacement that looks to be a promising player for the future, maintained Cap room should Palmer have requested reinstatement, waited for a desperate team in dire need of an experienced quarterback and leveraged a dramatic package for Palmer, a player that was never going to add any more to the Bengals anyway.

Edit to add the following: For the underlined part above, this is where it gets tenuous. The is simply NO WAY to predict this... NONE. You are giving Brown credit for predicting exactly the impossible. I credit them for getting it done and seizing the chance. ***damn straight! Maybe better lucky than good in this case but keep it based on reality.

The Raiders will pay Palmer $7.44 million for the rest of 2011 -- which he will restructure for Cap purposes, not cash -- and $11.5 million for 2012. The Bengals are paying Dalton a little over $5 million for the next four years and will pay next year's pick from the Raiders around $8 million for four years. Thus, the Raiders will pay Palmer almost $19 million for a year and a half; the Bengals will pay Dalton and the first-round pick Palmer nets (not even mentioning the 2013 pick) about $13 million for eight years of service!

With the lessened financial obligation of the new CBA, first-round picks -- as well as second-round picks -- are gold. They give a team great value for the money now associated with them. The Bengals will reap the benefits of the that. As to the Raiders, they are becoming the Redskins of a decade ago; draft picks are fungible. the future is now.

What can Brown do for Carson? Leverage a trade that will benefit the Bengals for years to come.

/>http://www.nationalf...-for-Brown.html

[James_Brooks21]

A special shout out to the Cleveland Browns without them this probably would not have happened. How ironic that I was watching that game Sunday and was mad as hell when Campbell got hurt because I thought that would be the ticket for Cleveland to win that game. Little did I know that it was the key for us to hit the lottery.

[derekshank]

And for those who cannot understand that this kind of luck cannot be planned or calculated or anticipated, then keep on dreamin' and buying those lotto tickets.

If you'll read what I've written... I've admitted that Campbell getting injured was a lucky scenario. And no one could have predicted that exact scenario.

But it certainly isn't a stretch to bet that a team (perhaps not the Raiders)... but a team could experience an injured QB and be willing to pay more than face value for Palmer.

Mike Brown's willingness to wait allowed for such a scenario to play out. Lucky? Sure. Because the trade deadline could have come and gone without yielding a truly desperate team. But that doesn't take anything away from Mike Brown.

If Palmer would have been traded at the 2012 draft, the Bengals would have still received compensation. So, it was simply a better gamble to wait for things to play out in the Bengals favor. They did... so yes. Mike Brown looks smart. At the very least... smarter than you.

[Spor_tees]

And for those who cannot understand that this kind of luck cannot be planned or calculated or anticipated, then keep on dreamin' and buying those lotto tickets.

If you'll read what I've written... I've admitted that Campbell getting injured was a lucky scenario. And no one could have predicted that exact scenario.

But it certainly isn't a stretch to bet that a team (perhaps not the Raiders)... but a team could experience an injured QB and be willing to pay more than face value for Palmer.

Mike Brown's willingness to wait allowed for such a scenario to play out. Lucky? Sure. Because the trade deadline could have come and gone without yielding a truly desperate team. But that doesn't take anything away from Mike Brown.

If Palmer would have been traded at the 2012 draft, the Bengals would have still received compensation. So, it was simply a better gamble to wait for things to play out in the Bengals favor. They did... so yes. Mike Brown looks smart. At the very least... smarter than you.

Kind of ironic that the trade deadline is probably what made this happen. If the trade deadline was later in the season the Raiders may have tried to see what one of the other QBs could do and waited out for a trade. There was actually a lot of things that fell into place for this trade. No one has mentioned how David Garrard ended up having to get surgery on his back instead of trying out for the Raiders. Just a couple days ago, ESPN had a quote from Garrard saying he would be open to playing for the Raiders, and now he has to get surgery.

So add up the factors, Brown holds off on trading Carson, Al Davis dies, Campbell gets hurt, Garrard has to have surgery, the Raiders actually have a shot at the playoffs, and the trade deadline looms. All that adds up to a sweet deal for the Bengals and lots of cap space to extend the young guys.

[kingwilly]

Let's not mistake.

I love the move.

They did very well in executing the deal from Oakland.

The team is better for waiting for luck (this time) rather than taking more sure scenarios.

I;m just not ready to proclaim "genius" when it is simply the greatest stroke of luck I've seen in quite a long time. It cannot be predicted (with any kind of certainty). That they had the luxury of waiting for this kind of luck, yes, they did make that happen. Great, what a good plan.

Wake up early, work hard, strike oil. The plan to get rich by John Paul Getty, his commentary related to luck in business. From purely a business view, this is crap approach. Sure, go ahead if you have the luxury to do so, which apparently Mikey did. Hardly something that you can repeat or count on.

[Spor_tees]

Let's not mistake.

I love the move.

They did very well in executing the deal from Oakland.

The team is better for waiting for luck (this time) rather than taking more sure scenarios.

I;m just not ready to proclaim "genius" when it is simply the greatest stroke of luck I've seen in quite a long time. It cannot be predicted (with any kind of certainty). That they had the luxury of waiting for this kind of luck, yes, they did make that happen. Great, what a good plan.

Wake up early, work hard, strike oil. The plan to get rich by John Paul Getty, his commentary related to luck in business. From purely a business view, this is crap approach. Sure, go ahead if you have the luxury to do so, which apparently Mikey did. Hardly something that you can repeat or count on.

Yeah but Getty has one hell of a museum, and he would never have gotten that without some oil!

[kingwilly]

And for those who cannot understand that this kind of luck cannot be planned or calculated or anticipated, then keep on dreamin' and buying those lotto tickets.

If you'll read what I've written... I've admitted that Campbell getting injured was a lucky scenario. And no one could have predicted that exact scenario.

But it certainly isn't a stretch to bet that a team (perhaps not the Raiders)... but a team could experience an injured QB and be willing to pay more than face value for Palmer.

Mike Brown's willingness to wait allowed for such a scenario to play out. Lucky? Sure. Because the trade deadline could have come and gone without yielding a truly desperate team. But that doesn't take anything away from Mike Brown.

If Palmer would have been traded at the 2012 draft, the Bengals would have still received compensation. So, it was simply a better gamble to wait for things to play out in the Bengals favor. They did... so yes. Mike Brown looks smart. At the very least... smarter than you.

For God's sake.... ok, sure. I suppose Mike Brown, by any measure, is smarter than me. Perhaps we can christen 10/18 as Mike Brown Genius of the World Day.

I've said my piece about the luck of this, and not to piss on the whole thing but to firmly grasp the reality of this as more luck than anything else. I'll move on to speculating what kind of draft they can have with the extra picks.

Pardon me for attempting to view this amazingly lucky deal from planet earth.

[derekshank]

Pardon me for attempting to view this amazingly lucky deal from planet earth.

Pardon me for calling you on your bulls**t. You aren't the only one sitting on planet earth. You just happen to view things through your s**t stained "Mike Brown sucks" lenses.

As I said before... I've been with Mike Brown every step of the way on this. I didn't predict a mid-season trade... but I saw what he was doing as a smart move to avoid low-ball offers. I didn't expect the best offer to come until April... but here we are, celebrating a fantastic move.

And if you'll look around, the only people who have anything negative to say about Mike Brown today are Bengals fans. That should tell you something. An unbiased perspective praises Mike Brown today. You don't have a corner on the truth... you're just wrong.

[HoosierCat]

Were the Bengals lucky? Sure. But luck alone doesn't make deals happen. An opportunity presented itself and Mike could have ignored it. Many Bengals fans had, in fact, encouraged him to do just that no matter what was offered ("let him rot"). Mike, to what should be his enormous credit, turned that luck into two high draft picks. That's the kind of thing that good GMs do. So props. Enormous props. IMO he deserves them.

[derekshank]

Mike, to what should be his enormous credit, turned that luck into two high draft picks. That's the kind of thing that good GMs do. So props. Enormous props. IMO he deserves them.

This.

[cincyhokie]

If you criticize for something being one way, you have to commend for the same. Otherwise, are we not "tilting at windmills"?

I most certainly was not giving MB as much credit for holding out. I was warming up to Carson getting traded in the offseason and was able to see more clearly what MB was doing.

Today was totally unexpected and credit needs to be given where it's due. If MB was criticized in the past for not hammering a landslide deal, then at the very LEAST he needs to be commended for looking past his pride and stubborness that he gets slammed for.

[HoosierCat]

And if you'll look around, the only people who have anything negative to say about Mike Brown today are Bengals fans.

Well...not quite. There is SI's Jim Trotter, who seems to feel that the Carson Palmer trade demonstrates the racism inherent in the system (I supposed 'cause Carson got dealt in 2011 but not Chad in 2008 or something like that...)

@SI_JimTrotter Jim Trotter

if you're wondering why black players feel there's a double standard in the nfl, mike brown's handling of carson palmer is another example.

[derekshank]

And if you'll look around, the only people who have anything negative to say about Mike Brown today are Bengals fans.

Well...not quite. There is SI's Jim Trotter, who seems to feel that the Carson Palmer trade demonstrates the racism inherent in the system (I supposed 'cause Carson got dealt in 2011 but not Chad in 2008 or something like that...)

@SI_JimTrotter Jim Trotter

if you're wondering why black players feel there's a double standard in the nfl, mike brown's handling of carson palmer is another example.

[HairOnFire]

Of some note, a writer at USA Today claims the Bengals initially asked for newly acquired Raider LB Aaron Curry to be part of the compensation package, but quickly dropped that request.

[derekshank]

Of some note, a writer at USA Today claims the Bengals initially asked for newly acquired Raider LB Aaron Curry to be part of the compensation package, but quickly dropped that request.

I'm pretty ok with them dropping that request. He has been an utter failure in the 4-3. He'll do much better in the 3-4 I suspect.

[HairOnFire]

And if you'll look around, the only people who have anything negative to say about Mike Brown today are Bengals fans.

Well...not quite. There is SI's Jim Trotter, who seems to feel that the Carson Palmer trade demonstrates the racism inherent in the system (I supposed 'cause Carson got dealt in 2011 but not Chad in 2008 or something like that...)

Perhaps, but wouldn't it be better if Trotter actually explained what he meant rather than simply dropping the race card without adding a comment?

[Sea Ray]

Perhaps, but wouldn't it be better if Trotter actually explained what he meant rather than simply dropping the race card without adding a comment?

Probably because he couldn't defend it.

MB's not trading Chad to the Redskins hurt the team a lot more than it hurt Chad

[derekshank]

And if you'll look around, the only people who have anything negative to say about Mike Brown today are Bengals fans.

Well...not quite. There is SI's Jim Trotter, who seems to feel that the Carson Palmer trade demonstrates the racism inherent in the system (I supposed 'cause Carson got dealt in 2011 but not Chad in 2008 or something like that...)

Perhaps, but wouldn't it be better if Trotter actually explained what he meant rather than simply dropping the race card without adding a comment?

I don't really feel that his comment is worth responding to... but for the sake of conversation, allow me:

It was and always has been about need. In 2008 there were no WR options either in FA or in the draft that could adequately replace Chad as a #1 WR on the Bengals roster. If you'll notice... the same was true for Palmer, up until Dalton has proven himself to be an adequate starting QB in the NFL.

Mike Brown doesn't give away players they need unless he can replace them. Chad, at the time, was unreplaceable. Palmer has been replaced. Different situation. Chad should see it as a compliment.

[HoosierCat]

Perhaps, but wouldn't it be better if Trotter actually explained what he meant rather than simply dropping the race card without adding a comment?

In subsequent tweets he started answering everyone who was asking WTF he was talking about with a link to a story about Brown turning down the deal for Ocho so yeah, that's his beef. BUT he swears he's NOT calling Mike Brown a racist, just that this is why some black players think Mike is, or something like that. As derek said:

Just for the record, here's the bonehead's tweets (scroll up from the bottom)

SI_JimTrotter

@jjolly74 he has 2 playoff appearances, which is equal 2 the # of appearances cincy had in the 20 years b4 he arrived. y wldn't u keep him?

1 hour ago

Jim Trotter

@moto62 don't think too deeply. i wouldn't want you to hurt your head

1 hour ago

Jim Trotter

@realfreemancbs lol

1 hour ago

Jim Trotter

hmmmm RT @MartyCaswell: Very much looking forward to having @SI_JimTrotter & @timkawakami on today's show. Can't imagine what we'll talk abt

1 hour ago

Jim Trotter

ok, folks. it has been a blast. we'll talk soon. make it a great day.

2 hours ago

Jim Trotter

@DerrinHorton ?

2 hours ago

Jim Trotter

@Stuart_Inman have a good day

2 hours ago

Jim Trotter

@KingDiglur except if it involves ocho? wapo.st/pxFc9q

2 hours ago

Jim Trotter

@RobBrown_14 it didn't throw principle out the window with ocho.

2 hours ago

Jim Trotter

@boogie_on thank you

2 hours ago

Jim Trotter

@piemanchu brown turned it down here, bozo wapo.st/pxFc9q

2 hours ago

Jim Trotter

@jtrahin even though you'll completely disregard this, here ya go: wapo.st/pxFc9q

2 hours ago

Jim Trotter

@RobBrown_14 wapo.st/pxFc9q

2 hours ago

Jim Trotter

@Concudan wapo.st/pxFc9q

2 hours ago

Jim Trotter

@mj_baroz not always: wapo.st/pxFc9q

2 hours ago

Jim Trotter

@BroncosForums rhetorical question: if he was retired, why didn't he file retirement papers?

2 hours ago

trjn4vr

@SI_JimTrotter to quote Groucho Marx: "These are my principles. If you don't like them I have others." so does Mike Brown.

2 hours ago

Jim Trotter

@MileHighReport didn't take it for chad: wapo.st/pxFc9q

2 hours ago

Jim Trotter

@SportsTop wapo.st/pxFc9q

2 hours ago

Jim Trotter

please deal with facts: mike brown basically said this was abt principle. remember? carson has a contract, needs to honor it. nice principle

2 hours ago

Jim Trotter

please quote me accurately. i did NOT say brown was a racist. i said this is 1 reason black players BELIEVE there is a double standard. smh

2 hours ago

Jim Trotter

@mr_jasonjones please tell me the difference between the two situations. both included offers of two no. 1s.

2 hours ago

Jim Trotter

to those who've asked me to elaborate, read this and tell me mike brown isn't a hypocrite: wapo.st/pxFc9q

2 hours ago

Jim Trotter

ding! ding! ding! RT @DasDuck: I dont follow your double standard tweet, which could actually be making your point.

3 hours ago

Jim Trotter

@NFLGoodWitch it's really funny how many people want me to explain this. smh.

3 hours ago

Jim Trotter

if you're wondering why black players feel there's a double standard in the nfl, mike brown's handling of carson palmer is another example.

3 hours ago