[Sea Ray]

HairOnFire, on 29 July 2010 - 10:52 AM, said:

You brought up the concept of passing a doctor's evaluation. Not me.

Your response is so screwed up it's hard to follow. It attributed both quotes to me whereas only one was, but back to the concept of a doctor's evaluation, you brought it up in those exact words in post 13 of this thread:

Quote

Or are you asking for advice in how to pass a doctors evaluation?

So I ask you again, are you getting your pot because of a medical condition or just because you want to get high?

People falling in the latter category have something in common with those receiving Percodan and Vicodin illegally

[HairOnFire]

Sea Ray, on 29 July 2010 - 01:13 PM, said:

Your response is so screwed up it's hard to follow. It attributed both quotes to me whereas only one was...

Yeah, I see the posting error but it shouldn't be hard to follow....unless you're easily confused.

Sea Ray, on 29 July 2010 - 01:13 PM, said:

...but back to the concept of a doctor's evaluation, you brought it up....

No, you brought it up by claiming medical marijuana sales were a ruse made possible by only by lower medical standards. I responded by pointing out how prescriptions can only be obtained after a licensed doctor conducts a physical exam, makes a diagnosis, consults with the patient about treatment options, warns the patient about possible harm that may result from the drug being considered, and then legally prescribes the appropriate medicine. In other words, the exact same standard needed for a so-called normal guy like you to obtain the so-called normal drugs found in your medicine cabinet.

Sea Ray, on 29 July 2010 - 01:13 PM, said:

So I ask you again, are you getting your pot because of a medical condition or just because you want to get high?

It's not really any of your business, is it? But since you asked, my prescription was approved by a licensed medical doctor only after I produced medical records documenting an original injury followed by a nearly 30 year record of failed conventional treatment. And if conventional treatment methods don't work...why not try an alternative?

As for getting high, it seems to me that nobody needs a doctors approval or a prescription to find marijuana. I know I certainly didn't. Furthermore, few would be willing to spend considerably more for the legal stuff when far cheaper stuff is so readily available everywhere.

Ask yourself what's the bigger ruse? Yet another natural plant being exploited for it's proven medicinal properties OR a war on drugs that doesn't accomplish it's goals, diverts law enforcement resources, and empowers dealers who sell from a so-called black market?

[Sea Ray]

HairOnFire, on 29 July 2010 - 02:42 PM, said:

As for getting high, it seems to me that nobody needs a doctors approval or a prescription to find marijuana. I know I certainly didn't. Furthermore, few would be willing to spend considerably more for the legal stuff when far cheaper stuff is so readily available everywhere.

Ask yourself what's the bigger ruse? Yet another natural plant being exploited for it's proven medicinal properties OR a war on drugs that doesn't accomplish it's goals, diverts law enforcement resources, and empowers dealers who sell from a so-called black market?

Sounds like you're suggesting legalization is not the answer because legal pot will inevitably cost much more than black market pot. You might have a good point there

[HairOnFire]

Sea Ray, on 29 July 2010 - 03:02 PM, said:

Sounds like you're suggesting legalization is not the answer because legal pot will inevitably cost much more than black market pot. You might have a good point there.

You're ignoring the difference between medical and general legalization. The price of medicinal pot is purposely set 20-30% higher than street pot as a way to control or discourage those who would abuse the system. Simply put, most won't pay a premium for legal pot when cheaper street pot is so readily available everywhere.

As for general legalization, now being considered by California, studies project the price of marijuana to fall as much as 60% and remain there for several years before rising slightly. What isn't known is the long-term impact of people being able to grow their own pot at almost no cost whatsoever.

[CentralOhioBengal]

Tina Dupay must be stupid.

Marijuana users don't want to be taxed more. This thread shows that, with Hair stating he went to the no-tax place run by Steelers fans instead of the nice place that includes sales tax but has higher prices.

Marijuan users want to be not thrown in jail. Claiming they want taxed is just a ruse to obtain that goal.

Marijuana users should go to Oakland and get that marijuana farm thing shot down. 200K annualy for a license? My prediction is this: The huge "plantations" are built. They are hugely profitable. That money begins to talk in the state legislature. Soon Johnson & Johnson, Pfizer, and GlaxoSmithKline, take notice. These pharmaceutical companies are pretty adept at lobbying. They buy all the production facilities, they see to it that producing marijuana outside their own production stream is severely criminalized, they get marijuana designated as a controlled substance, but with real money and power behind it that makes today's "pseudo" controlled substance status disappear.

End result - Marijuana users who just want to get high can't find a quack who will write questionable prescriptions (no offense to HOF or any other legitimate medical users), and they are sent back to a black market that is now more expensive, more punitive, and more dangerous, because the system is now protecting not only the health and well-being of a population, but also the profits of a well-connected industry.

In short, the medical-use justification marijuana users have promulgated has built for them a fools' paradise. In Ohio right now, you get busted with less than an ounce of weed, it is a minor misdemeanor, no jail and max $100.00 fine. You get busted with one oxycontin pill, you are guilty of a felony with prison time a possibility. So why in the world would you want to shove your favorite drug into that arena?

Instead, marijuana users should go back to the goal of alcohol-like legalization. It may be a steeper climb, but it is a more intellectualy honest goal, and thus one that will provide the end result that they truly want. This other path is just going to be a lesson in the law of unintended consequences.

[redsbengalsbucks]

CentralOhioBengal, on 30 July 2010 - 08:54 AM, said:

Tina Dupay must be stupid.

Marijuana users don't want to be taxed more. This thread shows that, with Hair stating he went to the no-tax place run by Steelers fans instead of the nice place that includes sales tax but has higher prices.

Marijuan users want to be not thrown in jail. Claiming they want taxed is just a ruse to obtain that goal.

Marijuana users should go to Oakland and get that marijuana farm thing shot down. 200K annualy for a license? My prediction is this: The huge "plantations" are built. They are hugely profitable. That money begins to talk in the state legislature. Soon Johnson & Johnson, Pfizer, and GlaxoSmithKline, take notice. These pharmaceutical companies are pretty adept at lobbying. They buy all the production facilities, they see to it that producing marijuana outside their own production stream is severely criminalized, they get marijuana designated as a controlled substance, but with real money and power behind it that makes today's "pseudo" controlled substance status disappear.

End result - Marijuana users who just want to get high can't find a quack who will write questionable prescriptions (no offense to HOF or any other legitimate medical users), and they are sent back to a black market that is now more expensive, more punitive, and more dangerous, because the system is now protecting not only the health and well-being of a population, but also the profits of a well-connected industry.

In short, the medical-use justification marijuana users have promulgated has built for them a fools' paradise. In Ohio right now, you get busted with less than an ounce of weed, it is a minor misdemeanor, no jail and max $100.00 fine. You get busted with one oxycontin pill, you are guilty of a felony with prison time a possibility. So why in the world would you want to shove your favorite drug into that arena?

Instead, marijuana users should go back to the goal of alcohol-like legalization. It may be a steeper climb, but it is a more intellectualy honest goal, and thus one that will provide the end result that they truly want. This other path is just going to be a lesson in the law of unintended consequences.

And again I say, well put COB.

You nailed it, money talks. As soon as a profit is to be made, it will be a rush to limit the amount of producers. It might not be big Pharm that takes the industry over, but someone will. Whatever industry does take it over, will make damn sure that individuals will not be able to produce thier own stock, because that is lost profits for them.

[HairOnFire]

CentralOhioBengal, on 30 July 2010 - 08:54 AM, said:

Marijuana users don't want to be taxed more. This thread shows that, with Hair stating he went to the no-tax place run by Steelers fans instead of the nice place that includes sales tax but has higher prices.

Yup.

CentralOhioBengal, on 30 July 2010 - 08:54 AM, said:

Marijuan users want to be not thrown in jail. Claiming they want taxed is just a ruse to obtain that goal.

Agreed, but calling their tactics a ruse seems a bit much. Rather, taxation offers the promise of normalization. A way of bringing the culture into the mainstream.

CentralOhioBengal, on 30 July 2010 - 08:54 AM, said:

Marijuana users should go to Oakland and get that marijuana farm thing shot down. 200K annualy for a license? My prediction is this: The huge "plantations" are built. They are hugely profitable. That money begins to talk in the state legislature. Soon Johnson & Johnson, Pfizer, and GlaxoSmithKline, take notice. These pharmaceutical companies are pretty adept at lobbying. They buy all the production facilities, they see to it that producing marijuana outside their own production stream is severely criminalized, they get marijuana designated as a controlled substance, but with real money and power behind it that makes today's "pseudo" controlled substance status disappear.

I'm not seeing it. In fact, I don't see the general legalization of marijuana happening any time soon. Rather, I see states like California and Colorado turning back those measures until it can gain greater control of the medical marijuana networks that exploded within their borders before proper regulation was put in place. For example, Colorado now dictates medical marijuana sellers personally grow at least 70% of the product they sell, thereby limiting the scope of their medical marijuana sales. Sadly, California has no such requirement and sellers are free to sell as much as they can without having to prove where they obtained their product.

CentralOhioBengal, on 30 July 2010 - 08:54 AM, said:

End result - Marijuana users who just want to get high can't find a quack who will write questionable prescriptions (no offense to HOF or any other legitimate medical users....

No offense taken. Because while I don't mind joking about getting high I know all too well how I didn't need a doctors approval to get high. Furthermore, while anyone can fake a back injury few can fake an X-ray showing a severly compressed disk in their lower back. Not to mention a medical history detailing several decades worth of failed treatment using more familiar drugs like Robaxin, Vicodin, and Cox2. And yeah, I'd still be taking those types of drugs if they offered any relief for long-term chronic pain. But they didn't. At best, they gave short-term relief during episodes of extreme distress. They offer nothing for the numbing effects of constant low-grade pain.

CentralOhioBengal, on 30 July 2010 - 08:54 AM, said:

In Ohio right now, you get busted with less than an ounce of weed, it is a minor misdemeanor, no jail and max $100.00 fine.

So for all practicle purposes Ohio has already decriminalized marijuana use by the general public. However, without legalization all marijuana sales in Ohio now involve the so-called black market, right? And despite the widespread use of marijuana in Ohio the state receives no tax benefits precisely because growers can't operate openly and can still be sent to prison if caught.

Knowing the above, why wouldn't the fair and gentle citizens of Ohio embrace a facility like the one being built in Oakland? Do you value your black market so much that you fear openly operated legal facilities that supply a much desired product that is already found in abundance all around you?

[HairOnFire]

redsbengalsbucks, on 30 July 2010 - 09:10 AM, said:

You nailed it, money talks. As soon as a profit is to be made, it will be a rush to limit the amount of producers. It might not be big Pharm that takes the industry over, but someone will. Whatever industry does take it over, will make damn sure that individuals will not be able to produce thier own stock, because that is lost profits for them.

Again, I'm not buying the car you're selling.

Let's start with the talking money. According to the California Board of Equalization the states marijuana crop is conservatively estimated to be worth $14 billion dollars a year and would generate at least $1 billion dollars a year in tax revenue if legalized. That's plenty of unharnessed political power....more than enough to keep Big Pharm at arms length. And that's because states like california need a new source of tax revenue far more than marijuana growers need a legal marketplace. Let's not forget how the price of the product is expected to be halved by general legalization.

Furthermore, I think you're overestimating how easily it will be to take over a mostly unorganized industry, using regulation, that somehow managed to grow exponentially despite being against state and federal law.

[redsbengalsbucks]

HairOnFire, on 30 July 2010 - 01:41 PM, said:

redsbengalsbucks, on 30 July 2010 - 09:10 AM, said:

You nailed it, money talks. As soon as a profit is to be made, it will be a rush to limit the amount of producers. It might not be big Pharm that takes the industry over, but someone will. Whatever industry does take it over, will make damn sure that individuals will not be able to produce thier own stock, because that is lost profits for them.

Again, I'm not buying the car you're selling.

Let's start with the talking money. According to the California Board of Equalization the states marijuana crop is conservatively estimated to be worth $14 billion dollars a year and would generate at least $1 billion dollars a year in tax revenue if legalized. That's plenty of unharnessed political power....more than enough to keep Big Pharm at arms length. And that's because states like california need a new source of tax revenue far more than marijuana growers need a legal marketplace. Let's not forget how the price of the product is expected to be halved by general legalization.

Furthermore, I think you're overestimating how easily it will be to take over a mostly unorganized industry, using regulation, that somehow managed to grow exponentially despite being against state and federal law.

Maybe your right, but I still think that some large industry will gobble up a majority of the producers quickly, when it becomes a profitable venture. Raising the price dramatically.

I am 100% behind the legalization of grass, it is less of a debilitating drug than alcohol and the time and money wasted on enforcing the laws surrounding it are a major reason why many State and local governments are going broke.

I'd still be using it recreationally if my last two employers (like most here in Ohio)didnt check randomly for it's use.

Speaking of that, do employers in Cali do random testing? How does that work if you have a prescription?

[HairOnFire]

redsbengalsbucks, on 31 July 2010 - 05:11 AM, said:

Maybe your right, but I still think that some large industry will gobble up a majority of the producers quickly, when it becomes a profitable venture. Raising the price dramatically.

But how do you take over an industry that is both unorganized and wildly successful operating outside of legal boundaries? And if Big Pharm actually did manage the trick of gaining control of legal sales how could they dramatically double the price of a product that can be so easily obtained through a massive pre-existing network of underground growers?

redsbengalsbucks, on 31 July 2010 - 05:11 AM, said:

I am 100% behind the legalization of grass, it is less of a debilitating drug than alcohol and the time and money wasted on enforcing the laws surrounding it are a major reason why many State and local governments are going broke.

The most serious resistance to general legalization in California has come from law enforcement officials worried that they won't have the ability to arrest impaired drivers....because they have no test available to check levels of impairment.

redsbengalsbucks, on 31 July 2010 - 05:11 AM, said:

Speaking of that, do employers in Cali do random testing? How does that work if you have a prescription?

Some test...some don't. Policy differs from comapany to company I'd imagine.

[redsbengalsbucks]

[quote name='HairOnFire' date='31 July 2010 - 03:12 PM' timestamp='1280603563' post='325554']
[quote name='redsbengalsbucks' date='31 July 2010 - 06:11 AM' timestamp='1280571060' post='325513']
Maybe your right, but I still think that some large industry will gobble up a majority of the producers quickly, when it becomes a profitable venture. Raising the price dramatically.[/quote]

But how do you take over an industry that is both unorganized and wildly successful operating outside of legal boundaries? And if Big Pharm actually did manage the trick of gaining control of legal sales how could they dramatically double the price of a product that can be so easily obtained through a massive pre-existing network of underground growers?


Just like when prohibition ended, the underground network that supplies the grass will be dramatically reduced, because of legal means to buy it. This will raise the cost of the product.

The only way I see cost going down is if it becomes legal to grow it, which I dont think the powers that be will let happen anytime soon.

[HairOnFire]

redsbengalsbucks, on 01 August 2010 - 05:42 AM, said:

The only way I see cost going down is if it becomes legal to grow it, which I dont think the powers that be will let happen anytime soon.[/b]

Anytime soon?

It's happening now....as pointed out in the article about Oakland California's city council giving approval allowing four massive marijuana factory farms, said to be the first of many.

How many?

Oakland will award the first permits from a pool of 220 applicants....all of whom have to agree to pay a 5% "Pot Tax" if passed in the coming November elections.

BTW, a recent update of the Oakland story profiled one of the applicants, a retired contractor who owns 172k square feet of abandoned factory floorspace. His business plan projects $59 million dollars in annual revenue....generating 3.4 million in annual tax payments. Add another $20 million to the local economy in jobs/building conversion costs.

And that's just one guy, right? There are 219 other applicants in Oakland alone. And a combined 2.3 million square feet of unoccupied industrial space currently available.

Last, it isn't just Oakland. Nearby Berkeley will soon determine whether it will approve six factory farms of it's own...although they will limit the size to 30,000 square feet apiece.

[redsbengalsbucks]

HairOnFire, on 02 August 2010 - 12:51 PM, said:

redsbengalsbucks, on 01 August 2010 - 05:42 AM, said:

The only way I see cost going down is if it becomes legal to grow it, which I dont think the powers that be will let happen anytime soon.[/b]

Anytime soon?

It's happening now....as pointed out in the article about Oakland California's city council giving approval allowing four massive marijuana factory farms, said to be the first of many.

How many?

Oakland will award the first permits from a pool of 220 applicants....all of whom have to agree to pay a 5% "Pot Tax" if passed in the coming November elections.

BTW, a recent update of the Oakland story profiled one of the applicants, a retired contractor who owns 172k square feet of abandoned factory floorspace. His business plan projects $59 million dollars in annual revenue....generating 3.4 million in annual tax payments. Add another $20 million to the local economy in jobs/building conversion costs.

And that's just one guy, right? There are 219 other applicants in Oakland alone. And a combined 2.3 million square feet of unoccupied industrial space currently available.

Last, it isn't just Oakland. Nearby Berkeley will soon determine whether it will approve six factory farms of it's own...although they will limit the size to 30,000 square feet apiece.

Factory farms are the industry side of the growing equation. The little guy growing for his own consumption is still looking at legal problems with growing his own.

The Factory farms are actually the start of bad news for the small time grower, because pressure and money will be brought against them. Lobbyists for the new industry will make sure that the drug wars attention will turn to keeping the legal factory farms the major supplier, allowing them to raise the price anytime they like.