Leon Hall

[membengal]

Um,no, he wasn't.

Um Yes he was I know Hall gave up atleast 3 passes to Mass himself,Once my TV is available go back and watch it again

Yeah. Not sure why mem is arguing over something that is easy enough to go fact check. Watch the game again.

Especially when the plays made against him weren't his fault. His coverage was good. The only way to stop them was pass interference. Hall played well... but to say he wasn't covering someone that many remember hearing and seeing, as well as noted when rewatching the game is kind of stupid.

Sigh. This season, hall has been the primary guy on the other teams no. 1s. He just has. That is from watching games and comments by hall and joseph on stuff like bengals line on wlw. Did the bengals shift hall to massaquoi some in the second half? Yes. And he draped him on those occasions. Being a shut down corner does not mean a pass is never completed. The media's current db man crush is revis, and passes get completed against him.

Given what hall's assignments have been, and the stats of those guys, I stand by my statement on hall becoming a shutdown corner...

[walzav29]

Mussaquia lit him up if I'm not mistaken. I like him alot. On the flip side they have held

B Marshall

G. Jennings

S. Holmes

B. Edwards

in check. I'm not bashing Hall, I'm just saying that a shut down doesn't give up anything.

Um, he was on Braylon, not Massequoi.

Shut down.

/>http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20091005/SPT02/310050095/1066/Rookies+dent+Bengals+secondary

Note the photo. He got Hall too.

[Kazkal]

Sigh. This season, hall has been the primary guy on the other teams no. 1s. He just has. That is from watching games and comments by hall and joseph on stuff like bengals line on wlw. Did the bengals shift hall to massaquoi some in the second half? Yes.

2 Quarters in to rewatching it with a tally sheet pretty much Hall was on Braylon for entire 1st Quarter but JJoe was on him 2nd quarter...Watching 3 and 4 now...

[jonahdsage]

Um,no, he wasn't.

Um Yes he was I know Hall gave up atleast 3 passes to Mass himself,Once my TV is available go back and watch it again

Yeah. Not sure why mem is arguing over something that is easy enough to go fact check. Watch the game again.

Especially when the plays made against him weren't his fault. His coverage was good. The only way to stop them was pass interference. Hall played well... but to say he wasn't covering someone that many remember hearing and seeing, as well as noted when rewatching the game is kind of stupid.

Being a shut down corner does not mean a pass is never completed..

'nuff said.

[derekshank]

Um,no, he wasn't.

Um Yes he was I know Hall gave up atleast 3 passes to Mass himself,Once my TV is available go back and watch it again

Yeah. Not sure why mem is arguing over something that is easy enough to go fact check. Watch the game again.

Especially when the plays made against him weren't his fault. His coverage was good. The only way to stop them was pass interference. Hall played well... but to say he wasn't covering someone that many remember hearing and seeing, as well as noted when rewatching the game is kind of stupid.

Sigh. This season, hall has been the primary guy on the other teams no. 1s. He just has. That is from watching games and comments by hall and joseph on stuff like bengals line on wlw. Did the bengals shift hall to massaquoi some in the second half? Yes. And he draped him on those occasions. Being a shut down corner does not mean a pass is never completed. The media's current db man crush is revis, and passes get completed against him.

Given what hall's assignments have been, and the stats of those guys, I stand by my statement on hall becoming a shutdown corner...

I agree with your opinion on Hall. The problem is your delivery. You made more than one "matter of fact" type comments that Hall covered Braylon the entire game and did not cover Massaquoi. You were wrong... but continued to fight for a false claim. This damages your credibility.

But we agree that Hall is proving to be worth the top 10 pick that was used to draft him.

[Pidge]

Hall was the 18th pick. I think JJ was 20-something as well. Good value from both of them. I agree that Hall has "gotten it" better than JJ thus far. I like JJ's ability to get an interception now so he's improved too.

[membengal]

Well derek, doing best I can to post from a blackberry and might have been missing nuance in postings. Who was hall's primary assignment? Edwards. Was edwards shut down? Yes. Same in green bay with jennings? Yes. It seems to me people are being needlessly picky over the concept of a shutdown corner. I see one coming on this team and he is #29. When I get home and can re-construct where this pt.got lost I will do so...

[Pidge]

The way the rules are set in the nuffle, all defenders, especially DBs, are screwed either way. The league is designed to be an Offense first league. It's more like baseball back in the secondary. Maybe batting .300 is a little s**tty but doing a good job in the secondary is anything above .660 and shutdown status is akin to .800. Nobody can be perfect the way the rules are set up.

[jonahdsage]

The way the rules are set in the nuffle, all defenders, especially DBs, are screwed either way. The league is designed to be an Offense first league. It's more like baseball back in the secondary. Maybe batting .300 is a little s**tty but doing a good job in the secondary is anything above .660 and shutdown status is akin to .800. Nobody can be perfect the way the rules are set up.

i like you more with every post, pidge. Seeing what goes for "pass interference" these days (note the end zone interception that was called back against green bay lastnight) and it seems like it's nearly impossible to be a cornerback in this league. I really think it's the hardest position to play physically and then you have to factor in the desire from the NFL for the big "wow" plays and it's just crazy difficult to be an effective corner in this league.

[membengal]

Mussaquia lit him up if I'm not mistaken. I like him alot. On the flip side they have held

B Marshall

G. Jennings

S. Holmes

B. Edwards

in check. I'm not bashing Hall, I'm just saying that a shut down doesn't give up anything.

Um, he was on Braylon, not Massequoi.

Shut down.

He was on Massequoi on several of his catches. But even the announcers noted that his coverage was really good, and that Massequoi was just finding a way to catch the ball.

Here's where it went sideways.

Wazlav maintains that Massaquoi "lit him up". I firmly disagree with that characterization. Balls being caught while he is draped on someone is NOT "lighting up". The only catch that Massaquoi made that annoyed me was the 29 yarder to the 1 that set Cleveland up for their first TD. Who was that over? If Hall, then I yield on that particular point. My memory is that it was JJ.

[membengal]

And I further firmly disagree with is walzav's definition of a shutdown corner and what they give up. Gives up "nothing"? No corner gives up "nothing". Balls will be caught. The question is the damage that is done on said balls.

[Pidge]

/crosses legs

[Pidge]

The way the rules are set in the nuffle, all defenders, especially DBs, are screwed either way. The league is designed to be an Offense first league. It's more like baseball back in the secondary. Maybe batting .300 is a little s**tty but doing a good job in the secondary is anything above .660 and shutdown status is akin to .800. Nobody can be perfect the way the rules are set up.

i like you more with every post, pidge. Seeing what goes for "pass interference" these days (note the end zone interception that was called back against green bay lastnight) and it seems like it's nearly impossible to be a cornerback in this league. I really think it's the hardest position to play physically and then you have to factor in the desire from the NFL for the big "wow" plays and it's just crazy difficult to be an effective corner in this league.

Completely agree. Especially if your front 7 doesn't get much pressure on the QB. Basically impossible to 'cover' a WR for more thna 4 seconds as they have all the advantages. Guys like Mel Blount and Herb Adderly were burnt and they played in an era where they could basically piggyback on the receiver's shoulders all the way from the line of scrimmage. The corners in this league, especially the successful ones, deserve far more credit than the occasional darling of the month they get from ESPN.

They get left out on an island with virtually no help from anyone, least of all the NFL. Must be quite a mentally draining position to play. You're going to get beaten but have to come back the very next snap and do it over and over having to attain perfection in order to be dubbed "decent enough".

[derekshank]

Hall was the 18th pick.

Funny how memories can just be flat out wrong. I was 100% sure I was right... and I was still wrong.

I would have been willing to bet you a good sum of money that Hall was picked #10. Maybe because he was projected at #10 by a lot of mock drafts and most of us were delighted he fell to #18. Regardless of why I remembered it incorrectly... it's a good thing I decided to look it up before offering you a wager.

[Pidge]

Hall was the 18th pick.

Funny how memories can just be flat out wrong. I was 100% sure I was right... and I was still wrong.

I would have been willing to bet you a good sum of money that Hall was picked #10. Maybe because he was projected at #10 by a lot of mock drafts and most of us were delighted he fell to #18. Regardless of why I remembered it incorrectly... it's a good thing I decided to look it up before offering you a wager.

I, too, remember being stoked that he fell to us, as Revis/Aaron Ross aside, the CB class was ever so slightly rubbish. Feast or famine that yr.

[ArmyBengal]

To catch up, I would like to add that I was merely pointing out who was covering who and could ultimately care less, as I believe we have a very solid, as well as young, CB tandom that will only get better as they go. I also agree with Mem's point about balls will be caught regardless of how good you are. Champ Bailey has had bad days and got absolutely SCORCHED by Chad in that Monday night game. Anyone willing to say Champ isn't a "shutdown" corner ?? Nope... How about Ashamugha or whatever the hell is name is for the Raiders ?? Shutdown without thought, but he to has plays made against him.

I will say this though, if the Bengals front 7 can find a way to put consistent pressure on the opposing QB without always having to runa blitz package, the conversation would be about how the Bengals have the best CB tandom in the NFL right now with TWO "shutdown" corners. Just my thought on that one...

[agreen_112]

You would have to do some research into the amount of plays gave up on how many attempts and come up with a percentage.. The top guys are your "shut down" corners.

Even your "shut down" corners are going to give up big plays.

I wouldn't consider Hall or JJoe "shut down" at this point. They gotta make some BIG BIG plays for me to consider that. They gotta quit giving up that deep route. They have to quit giving a 10 yard cushion on EVERY play.

They are both VERY good corners but they both still need to improve.

I like this duo more than any duo we've had. I will say that.

[walzav29]

1st. We're losing our minds over this. Membengals a good man.

2nd. When I think of shutdown it's a Deion Sanders type. You cringe when you threw to his side. I would say Namdi is the closest to that at this point. I love Hall and he's getting better and better, but I have to give the edge to Revis at this time.

[membengal]

I continue to disagree w/ how restrictive your particular definition is. I also think revis is prob better at this point (at least he gets more pub, ah NY), but that does not mean hall is not also a shut down corner.

Again, my understanding is that hall has primarily been the corner resp for marshall, jennings, holmes and edwards. And has been damn good. Even when switching to massequoi, he made them work for it. When hall covers a guy at this point, he tends to be right up on them. I happen to think he is under-appreciated by bengals fans in general...

[membengal]

And no, I don't have time or access while at work to go to football outsiders or a similar site and break down the numbers. Sry.

[Pidge]

I continue to disagree w/ how restrictive your particular definition is. I also think revis is prob better at this point (at least he gets more pub, ah NY), but that does not mean hall is not also a shut down corner.

Again, my understanding is that hall has primarily been the corner resp for marshall, jennings, holmes and edwards. And has been damn good. Even when switching to massequoi, he made them work for it. When hall covers a guy at this point, he tends to be right up on them. I happen to think he is under-appreciated by bengals fans in general...

This is not to dispute that Hall does an excellent job and I really like both of our corners but....I know he's a rookie etc but Massetc was single covered by JJ most of the time and without safety help. The SS was all about run support. Naturally you design your coverage to nullify the biggest threat which was 100% Braylon, all man made fibre. The FS was rolling over on that side to make sure Braylon couldn't break a big play had he caught the ball.

That is not to diminish the excellent job Leon has been doing mostly this season but it does explain why Massetc had some joy. Who is underestimating Leon, or JJ for that matter? Get them a genuine pass rush that shows up each week and you have one of the best tandems in the league. Both fast and with decent size. The fact that they don't get much recognition nationally is that, well they've been on a team that kinda sucked for the past few yrs.

Plus, our front 7 weren't exactly helping out any of the DBs with their lack of push up the middle or rush off the edges.

[Baraka]

very briefly, i haven't seen any mention of the consistent two and three step drops that resulted in a large share of the completions on sunday. it's tough to get a pass rush against 1.2.3 throw. i guess more press coverage was warranted, but that often leads to big plays over the top.

[agreen_112]

1st. We're losing our minds over this. Membengals a good man.

2nd. When I think of shutdown it's a Deion Sanders type. You cringe when you threw to his side. I would say Namdi is the closest to that at this point. I love Hall and he's getting better and better, but I have to give the edge to Revis at this time.

Agreed. Revis was our man but the Jets swiped him up right from under our nose.. Hall was the next best option. Their play has proved that too... I still love Hall but at this point Hall < Revis.

[agreen_112]

I continue to disagree w/ how restrictive your particular definition is. I also think revis is prob better at this point (at least he gets more pub, ah NY), but that does not mean hall is not also a shut down corner.

Again, my understanding is that hall has primarily been the corner resp for marshall, jennings, holmes and edwards. And has been damn good. Even when switching to massequoi, he made them work for it. When hall covers a guy at this point, he tends to be right up on them. I happen to think he is under-appreciated by bengals fans in general...

Mem, I love you man. I also really really like Hall. He's one of my favorite Bengals players. But, you can NOT call Hall a "shut down" corner. Not at this point. It's waaaayyy too early for that.

You say, "he tends to be right up on them." I don't disagree. He plays tight coverage most of the time but I also think Hall tends to play a little soft a little too much.

He's on his way. He has to keep making BIG plays. He is not a "shut down" corner today.

[Pidge]

There is only one that might fit the description of shutdown and it's the dude from Oakland. He has very few stats, primarily because the ball isn't thrown his way all that often. Bailey still has his games but they aren't all that regular anymore. Other than that, any corners teams genuinely try and avoid throwing to unless absolutely necessary? Of course not, shutdown corners are very rare.