If you want to rah-rah...

[derekshank]

2005 was 3 years ago. The Bengals went 8-8 in '06, 7-9 in '07, and 4-11-1 in '08.

That is 2 losing seasons since '05, not 4...

Actually that is 3 non-winning seasons since 05, not 4. But its true, I stand corrected.

Yes... that is 3 non-winning seasons. But you said 4 losing seasons. You were wrong on two counts. So, stand corrected again.

and last year was a clear rebuilding year.

"Nice try though."

Last year turned into a rebuilding year because the Bengals did not address the glaring holes on the oline during the offseason and Carson got killed because of it.

This season we start a rookie at LT and a rookie or 2nd year man with no experience at Center. These are the two most important positions on the oline as far as protecting Palmer. The LT protects his blind side and the C calls out the blitz pickups. And we will basically have 2 rookies starting there. Whether the Bengals had any options this offseason to upgrade the oline is debatable. But nothing was done, outside of the draft. That cannot be argued (rationally).

In my opinion that makes for another short year for Carson. Hope I'm wrong though.

Last year turned into a rebuilding year when? The released Willie and Rudi prior to the season for one reason. They wanted to see if Andrews and Perry could be counted on, or if they needed to rebuild at those positions as well. The team became ridiculously young last year before game 1. It was a rebuilding year from the get go.

And by the way... your continued complaining about how nothing was done to improve the O-Line when the #6 overall pick was used to address the O-line is nothing short of madness.

[Bearcat1975]

Last year turned into a rebuilding year because the Bengals did not address the glaring holes on the oline during the offseason and Carson got killed because of it.

This season we start a rookie at LT and a rookie or 2nd year man with no experience at Center. These are the two most important positions on the oline as far as protecting Palmer. The LT protects his blind side and the C calls out the blitz pickups. And we will basically have 2 rookies starting there. Whether the Bengals had any options this offseason to upgrade the oline is debatable. But nothing was done, outside of the draft. That cannot be argued (rationally).

In my opinion that makes for another short year for Carson. Hope I'm wrong though.

last year they did nothing in the offseason to improve the o-line.

Got it.

This year they drafted 2 guys that project as starters.

Okay.

This year is just as bad as last year.

Okay.....wait a minute......what ???

I love your comment that "nothing was done, outside of the draft." For a team that has consistently professed the philosophy that you build through the draft, especially for the most important positions, your comment sounds a lot like "nothing was done-except everything."

While there is a grain of truth to much of what you have to say, it's these particular nuggets that stand out to me. I mean, they clearly brought in a number of free agents, they just did so at positions you didn't prefer. It's fair to say you can't expect rookies to come in and play at the highest level right away, but it's not really fair to say that there were FA's who would come in and play at the highest level at these positions either.

It takes a while for a Center to adjust to the NFL. Our golden boy Braham didn't blossom into one until the tail end of his career and he was a converted guard I believe.

Coaches talk about the "light suddenly coming on" when they finally "get it." But it won't happen right away, although I believe it will happen. The "not right away" part is where I think Carson is going to get killed. Hope I'm wrong.

[Bearcat1975]

Yes... that is 3 non-winning seasons. But you said 4 losing seasons. You were wrong on two counts. So, stand corrected again.

Nice logic.

Last year turned into a rebuilding year when? The released Willie and Rudi prior to the season for one reason.

Because they were the worst at their position on the Bengals? Nope, that isn't it.

To pad Mr. You-Know-Who's bank account?

Now you've got it. See: Deltha Oneal

They wanted to see if Andrews and Perry could be counted on, or if they needed to rebuild at those positions as well. The team became ridiculously young last year before game 1. It was a rebuilding year from the get go.

Interesting logic.

And by the way... your continued complaining about how nothing was done to improve the O-Line when the #6 overall pick was used to address the O-line is nothing short of madness.

Your continued insistence that a team can pin all of its hopes on the draft is decidedly Bengal.

[HoTbOy]

Maybe, I'm more optimistic or maybe more naive, but I do believe the Bengals will go to the playoffs...I don't know if 2 rookies start on the OL, because we have C's who have been in the system for a while and may be better this season than the 1 who was drafted, there is no doubt, that ASmith is going to start, but it is not written in stone that it will be the L side...If there is 1 difference maker who is a rookie, I think it will be the K who will hopefully put teams in deep field position to better serve our D...

[HairOnFire]

He's just too clever for you, COB.

I think you two are the Wonder Twins, to be honest.

Never heard of 'em before, but I'm not suprised Bearcat has.

Here's a link:

http://www.seanbaby.com/superfriends/wondertwins.htm

(It's what I do, remember?)

Yeah, I remember. You provide links to worthless websites that don't offer additional information of any real value. It's what you do. And Bearcat likes to respond to written posts by posting pictures...because writing is so damn hard and picture books are a great way for guys like him to learn. And as for me, I insult people who bore me.

Perhaps we should all try to learn from each other, ehh? In fact, here's a link to a website filled with worthless information, plenty of pictures, and even a few insults. Enjoy!

[BengalByTheBay]

And by the way... your continued complaining about how nothing was done to improve the O-Line when the #6 overall pick was used to address the O-line is nothing short of madness.

Your continued insistence that a team can pin all of its hopes on the draft is decidedly Bengal.

So are you saying that instead of drafting a LT they should have signed one in FA .... and a center? You gotta draft somebody, right, so why wouldn't you draft, according to you, the most important position of need on the offensive line?

It sounds a lot like you think the o-line always has to come from FA. Should they have drafted a WR? Teams draft o-linemen all the time and expect them to play right away - that's not "decidedly Bengal" it's decidedly NFL.

[Bearcat1975]

Maybe, I'm more optimistic or maybe more naive, but I do believe the Bengals will go to the playoffs...I don't know if 2 rookies start on the OL, because we have C's who have been in the system for a while and may be better this season than the 1 who was drafted, there is no doubt, that ASmith is going to start, but it is not written in stone that it will be the L side...If there is 1 difference maker who is a rookie, I think it will be the K who will hopefully put teams in deep field position to better serve our D...

http://www.bengals.com/team/roster.html

Kyle Cook

Career Stats Season Team Games

G GS

TOTAL 5 0

2008-CIN 5 0

Andrew Crummey

Career Stats Season Team Games

G GS

TOTAL 6 0

2008 CIN 6 0

Dan Satucci

Career Stats* Season Team Games

G GS

2007 CIN 2 0

*Second-year pro spent the season on Reserve/Injured list, due to a preseason ankle injury.

These guys?

[Bearcat1975]

And by the way... your continued complaining about how nothing was done to improve the O-Line when the #6 overall pick was used to address the O-line is nothing short of madness.

Your continued insistence that a team can pin all of its hopes on the draft is decidedly Bengal.

So are you saying that instead of drafting a LT they should have signed one in FA .... and a center? You gotta draft somebody, right, so why wouldn't you draft, according to you, the most important position of need on the offensive line?

It sounds a lot like you think the o-line always has to come from FA. Should they have drafted a WR? Teams draft o-linemen all the time and expect them to play right away - that's not "decidedly Bengal" it's decidedly NFL.

Again, I think it was a great draft, although I would have passed on Smith because I think he is going to be a nightmare here. Yes you build the team through the draft but you don't build the team on the draft alone. It may surprise many here to know that it is not good to pin your hopes solely the draft. The Bengals have a long history of trying to draft "saviors" for their particular position instead of the ideal which would be drafting role players that either ease into your system or they don't.

"Saviors" typically demand more money too, but that's another topic.

[derekshank]

Yes... that is 3 non-winning seasons. But you said 4 losing seasons. You were wrong on two counts. So, stand corrected again.

Nice logic.

It is nice logic. You were wrong. I pointed it out. You said 4 losing seasons... it has only been 2 losing seasons.

Last year turned into a rebuilding year when? The released Willie and Rudi prior to the season for one reason.

Because they were the worst at their position on the Bengals? Nope, that isn't it.

To pad Mr. You-Know-Who's bank account?

Hmm... if that were the real reason, why would Mike Brown wait until he had already paid him his roster bonus.

They wanted to see if Andrews and Perry could be counted on, or if they needed to rebuild at those positions as well. The team became ridiculously young last year before game 1. It was a rebuilding year from the get go.

Interesting logic.

Thank you again.

Even you have admitted that Mike Brown is a good business man. It is one of your main arguments against him. He knows how to make money, but not how to run a football team... right? Well, how could this be seen as anything but a bad business decision? Brown had to fight his business instincts to cut Willie Anderson, because Willie had already received a fat $3 million paycheck for not having to play a snap. How could this be explained as a business decision? It was nothing more than a youth movement. A chance to see if the dancing bear could cut it. Same thing with Perry. Neither of them did... so they addressed these issues by signing Cedrick Benson, drafting a OT with the #6 overall pick and a making a trade for another RB.

And by the way... your continued complaining about how nothing was done to improve the O-Line when the #6 overall pick was used to address the O-line is nothing short of madness.

Your continued insistence that a team can pin all of its hopes on the draft is decidedly Bengal.

Yeah... I hate when teams try to rebuild with young talent instead of running a team into the ground like it was a game of Madden.

[HoTbOy]

Maybe, I'm more optimistic or maybe more naive, but I do believe the Bengals will go to the playoffs...I don't know if 2 rookies start on the OL, because we have C's who have been in the system for a while and may be better this season than the 1 who was drafted, there is no doubt, that ASmith is going to start, but it is not written in stone that it will be the L side...If there is 1 difference maker who is a rookie, I think it will be the K who will hopefully put teams in deep field position to better serve our D...

http://www.bengals.com/team/roster.html

Kyle Cook

Career Stats Season Team Games

G GS

TOTAL 5 0

2008-CIN 5 0

Andrew Crummey

Career Stats Season Team Games

G GS

TOTAL 6 0

2008 CIN 6 0

Dan Satucci

Career Stats* Season Team Games

G GS

2007 CIN 2 0

*Second-year pro spent the season on Reserve/Injured list, due to a preseason ankle injury.

These guys?

While I like the fact they drafted a C and addressed a need,JLuigs has 0 starts also...all I'm saying is this year he may not be better than what we already have...

[Bearcat1975]

While I like the fact they drafted a C and addressed a need,JLuigs has 0 starts also...all I'm saying is this year he may not be better than what we already have...

I hope for Palmer's sake that Luigs is better than what we already have.

[derekshank]

Again, I think it was a great draft, although I would have passed on Smith because I think he is going to be a nightmare here. Yes you build the team through the draft but you don't build the team on the draft alone.

So I suppose you would like to see the Bengals be active in FA and make trades to make the team better, right?

And I suppose Cedric Benson, Laveranues Coles, Tank Johnson, Roy Williams, Jeremi Johnson, and Brian Leonard don't count, right?

And why not? Because you would have one fewer thing to bitch about.

[HairOnFire]

I hope for Palmer's sake that Luigs is better than what we already have.

Don't you mean for O'Sullivan's sake?

Haven't you already shelved Palmer by the opener?

[Kazkal]

Proud owner of

[HairOnFire]

And why not? Because you would have one fewer thing to bitch about.

But there's the rub because guys like Bearcat don't need real things to bitch about. He'll either flit about the fringes looking for a minor grievance to exploit OR he'll start bitching now about things that may never happen.

And in a pinch he'll lie.

[Baraka]

i thought this was supposed to be a bearcatless thread. . .

[Bearcat1975]

And I suppose Cedric Benson, Laveranues Coles, Tank Johnson, Roy Williams, Jeremi Johnson, and Brian Leonard don't count, right?

Cedric Benson was a good signing

Laveranues Coles, I would have rather had TJ but TJ got sick of the losing, saw his way out and he too it. That being said, hopefully Coles can come in here and contribute.

Tank Johnson and Roy Williams - Not exactly difference makers but maybe their gamble will pay off here.

Jeremi Johnson - I never would have resigned him. Go find your life's work, Jeremi. Probably involving eating large quantities of food without exercising I imagine,

Brian Leonard - They really swung for the fences there, I'll give you that.

You forgot Crocker which was another good resign I thought.

It was ok. I give it a C. The ideal would have been to find some way to get creative through a trade of some kind to unload Chad and get a vet center with some experience in here to mentor the new guy.

[Kazkal]

This season we start a rookie at LT and a rookie or 2nd year man with no experience at Center. These are the two most important positions on the oline as far as protecting Palmer. The LT protects his blind side and the C calls out the blitz pickups. And we will basically have 2 rookies starting there. Whether the Bengals had any options this offseason to upgrade the oline is debatable. But nothing was done, outside of the draft. That cannot be argued (rationally).

Dolphins 1-15 Start Rookie LT and overhaul the franchise 11-5...

-They also had a crap center hence why they signed a avg one in Free agency

Browns go 4-12 Draft a rookie LT & have a backup center starting 10-6 the following season

Jets go 6-10 and draft & start LT D'brick & rookie center Nick Mangold going 10-6 the following year

Ya I say it's fair to be pretty optimistic even though were starting fairly green Olinemen & Cook doesn't have a nfl snapbut it is his 3rd year in the system and if Luigs does start He'll be flanked by 2 very Smart & Savy Pros in Whitworth & Bobbie.

Jeremi Johnson - I never would have resigned him. Go find your life's work, Jeremi. Probably involving eating large quantities of food without exercising I imagine,

At this point I hope he doesn't even make the team I like the idea of carrying both Pressley & Vakapuna in his place...They probably weigh less combined

Laveranues Coles, I would have rather had TJ but TJ got sick of the losing, saw his way out and he too it. That being said, hopefully Coles can come in here and contribute.

If it was about winning & losing he would have become a viking TJ was about money the Seahawks payed him the biggest contract.

You forgot Crocker which was another good resign I thought.

Indeed he may not be a probowler but he's a hungry player who wants to earn his place in the nfl.

[derekshank]

It may surprise many here to know that it is not good to pin your hopes solely the draft. The Bengals have a long history of trying to draft "saviors" for their particular position instead of the ideal which would be drafting role players that either ease into your system or they don't.

So where are all these successful teams whose 1st round draft picks don't play for a year or two?

The Patriots drafted Mayo who started al 16 games last year.

The Ravens drafted Flacco and Ray Rice... enough said.

The Steelers drafted Mendenhall who played in every game until he got hurt. They drafted Sweed in the 2nd who played in 11 games.

The Dolphins drafted Long who started all 16 games, Langford who started 13, and Merling who played in all 16 games.

The Colts didn't have a 1st round pick last year, but their 2nd round pick started 13 games, and their 3rd round pick played in all 16.

The Titans drafted Chris Johnson who started 14 games, and Jason Jones in the 2nd who played significant snaps in 13 games.

I don't feel like continuing to look up successful teams, because every single one I look up had rookies who started for them.

The Bengals are going to start their rookie OT. Maualuga will get significant playing time, and most likely start (although might come out in passing downs), and Johnson who might be a pass rush specialist - but certainly won't be a starter. I'm struggling to see here how that makes the Bengals so much different than every other team in the NFL.

And if your main concern is Luigs... I don't expect him to start right away. Cook would have been the starter last year over Ghiaciuc had he not gotten hurt. That means he's better. That means, the Bengals are upgraded at the position (even if only slightly) and have a future starter who will be eased into the position. You know - just how you like it... but you'll still find a way to complain about it.

[derekshank]

The ideal would have been to find some way to get creative through a trade of some kind to unload Chad and get a vet center with some experience in here to mentor the new guy.

Hmm... that's your solution? The Bengals couldn't get an offer better than a 3rd rounder for Chad... but a team would willingly part with a veteran C? This isn't Madden man. Teams don't trade away starting Centers.

The Bengals threw Ghiaciuc to the curb because they felt Cook was better, and Luigs is the future. What happened? The Chiefs signed him and intend to start him. What does that tell you? The Center position is coveted in the NFL. Teams aren't willing to trade starters away unless you give up an awful lot. And since Chad's market value is a 3rd rounder, they wouldn't have gotten anything special at the Center position for him.

[Bearcat1975]

And if your main concern is Luigs... I don't expect him to start right away. Cook would have been the starter last year over Ghiaciuc had he not gotten hurt. That means he's better. That means, the Bengals are upgraded at the position (even if only slightly) and have a future starter who will be eased into the position. You know - just how you like it... but you'll still find a way to complain about it.

My main concern is the Center position in general. You obviously feel we are good to go there and anyone who feels otherwise is just "complaining."

That's fine. But me saying the Bengals are in trouble at the Center position this season, just like they were last season, is not complaining, it is stating the obvious.

[Bearcat1975]

The ideal would have been to find some way to get creative through a trade of some kind to unload Chad and get a vet center with some experience in here to mentor the new guy.

Hmm... that's your solution? The Bengals couldn't get an offer better than a 3rd rounder for Chad... but a team would willingly part with a veteran C? This isn't Madden man. Teams don't trade away starting Centers.

The Bengals threw Ghiaciuc to the curb because they felt Cook was better, and Luigs is the future. What happened? The Chiefs signed him and intend to start him. What does that tell you? The Center position is coveted in the NFL. Teams aren't willing to trade starters away unless you give up an awful lot. And since Chad's market value is a 3rd rounder, they wouldn't have gotten anything special at the Center position for him.

I would have traded Chad for a 3rd in a heartbeat. Even if he goes on to have 15 probowls with another team, he'll never do anything more here than half-ass it and bring team morale down. Chad Johnson is the Bengals version of Dunn/Griffey. He should have been dealt away long ago. Sorry, I'm not a big Chad fan... I think he is a serious negative influence on the younger guys.

I agree that Center is not something that can be immediately solved. They tried to replace Braham with Guichaic and it nearly got Carson killed. Who is to blame for the gaping hole at Center is debatable, but what is not debatable is that there is a gaping hole at Center now where a seasoned vet should be.

[COB]

I think you two are the Wonder Twins, to be honest.

I call bulls**t. These so-called "twins" don't even look alike. Hanna-Barbera must have had revenue sharing and a sweet deal from their municipality to trot out something this weak.

So, Bearcat, your cartoon attack on me has turned out to be nothing but a complete fraud concocted to sell Quake and Qwisp to toddlers on Saturday mornings.

Just admit you hate the Bengals, wish they would cease to exist, and that you jizz in your pants somewhere in the second paragraph every time you read Doc's column.

[COB]

2005 was 4 years ago.

"I see better than I hear." -Marvin Lewis

2005 was ancient history and therefore not worthy of consideration?

That's funny, because you sure mention the losing records that came before 2005 an awful lot.

Nope. But the 4 that came after 2005 are certainly applicable.

Nice try though.

[Bearcat1975]

2005 was 4 years ago.

"I see better than I hear." -Marvin Lewis

2005 was ancient history and therefore not worthy of consideration?

That's funny, because you sure mention the losing records that came before 2005 an awful lot.

Nope. But the 4 that came after 2005 are certainly applicable.

Nice try though.

I was counting this season. And only a Bengal homer would point out the difference between a losing season and a "non-winning" season. Sad.