Dont want to start this again but thought I would post

[Clackwoods]

Sweety, you know a *real* 2nd or 3rd round pick is better than a comp pick

after checking what I wrote I'm still comfortable claiming the comp pick "almost guarantees" the Bengals will receive compensation that is "roughly equal" to the trade value Housh would have netted last season.....or for that matter, now.

Sweetheart, no. Just no.

In order to get that "almost guarentee" of which you speak, the Bengals would have to make sure they signed *zero* big name free agents

Including but not limited to any of the talented FA centers or defenders that are frequently in discussion here of late

What I am saying is that a guarenteed 2nd or third rounder (from a trade) this year would be MUCH better than hoping/praying for a possible round 3.5 compensatory pick. It's simply not roughly equal.

But.....I doubt any of this will convince you otherwise.

Do we need any milk or bread while I'm out?

i certainly agree that a trade would bring a pick that would be definite and surely higher than the potential comp pick, but i'm not sure how this relates to not signing jason brown.

i don't really want any of the other free agents out there, if no brown, then re-sign our own and call it day. most of the other free agents are either mediocre or old, and would command much more than they are worth, and most are both mediocre and old.

so if you could explain to me what the connection between signing a young, capable center and trading tj is, it would be greatly appreciated.

First, I thought signing another FA of the same position would make our comp pick not as good. If you let him walk and get another position that shouldn't hurt us, I am not completly sure though. The main concern I have with franchising TJ is the fact that he would be on our books for 9mil.

Even if we tag him just to trade him, we have to find a partner and get the thing consummated before FA begins or we might lose the money we would need to sign a FA. I say let him walk if he doesn't want to sign a decent contract with us and move on. I like him more than Chad, but like most people think I believe that Caldwell will fill in just fine for him this season!

[Clackwoods]

Sweety, you know a *real* 2nd or 3rd round pick is better than a comp pick

after checking what I wrote I'm still comfortable claiming the comp pick "almost guarantees" the Bengals will receive compensation that is "roughly equal" to the trade value Housh would have netted last season.....or for that matter, now.

Sweetheart, no. Just no.

In order to get that "almost guarentee" of which you speak, the Bengals would have to make sure they signed *zero* big name free agents

Including but not limited to any of the talented FA centers or defenders that are frequently in discussion here of late

What I am saying is that a guarenteed 2nd or third rounder (from a trade) this year would be MUCH better than hoping/praying for a possible round 3.5 compensatory pick. It's simply not roughly equal.

But.....I doubt any of this will convince you otherwise.

Do we need any milk or bread while I'm out?

i certainly agree that a trade would bring a pick that would be definite and surely higher than the potential comp pick, but i'm not sure how this relates to not signing jason brown.

i don't really want any of the other free agents out there, if no brown, then re-sign our own and call it day. most of the other free agents are either mediocre or old, and would command much more than they are worth, and most are both mediocre and old.

so if you could explain to me what the connection between signing a young, capable center and trading tj is, it would be greatly appreciated.

First, I thought signing another FA of the same position would make our comp pick not as good. If you let him walk and get another position that shouldn't hurt us, I am not completly sure though. The main concern I have with franchising TJ is the fact that he would be on our books for 9mil.

Even if we tag him just to trade him, we have to find a partner and get the thing consummated before FA begins or we might lose the money we would need to sign a FA. I say let him walk if he doesn't want to sign a decent contract with us and move on. I like him more than Chad, but like most people think I believe that Caldwell will fill in just fine for him this season!

On another note:

[Baraka]

i'm not 100% sure but i don't think it matters the position when it comes to comp picks. and really i don't think anyone does, as the formula is a closely guarded secret. if the past is any indication though, if a team loses more in FA, based on player performance and size of the contract signed, then they gain, compensatory picks are awarded. justin and madieu both signed monster contracts for their positions, i think madieu and odom may cancel each other out but b/c of justins 49 mil (20+ guaranteed) we will get a third or fourth round comp.

as far as tj is concerned, i believe the risk is to great in a tag and trade situation, unless the deal with the other team is already worked out, and there are rules barring that kind of under the table dealing. there is no way we should A) tag him at 9.88, and effectively shut our selves out of any further FA activity or sign him to an extension and give a 32 year old #2 receiver anything close to what he could get on the open market. so thanks for years tj but your time in stripes are over. and honestly that does not scare me one bit.

[Clackwoods]

i'm not 100% sure but i don't think it matters the position when it comes to comp picks. and really i don't think anyone does, as the formula is a closely guarded secret. if the past is any indication though, if a team loses more in FA, based on player performance and size of the contract signed, then they gain, compensatory picks are awarded. justin and madieu both signed monster contracts for their positions, i think madieu and odom may cancel each other out but b/c of justins 49 mil (20+ guaranteed) we will get a third or fourth round comp.

as far as tj is concerned, i believe the risk is to great in a tag and trade situation, unless the deal with the other team is already worked out, and there are rules barring that kind of under the table dealing. there is no way we should A) tag him at 9.88, and effectively shut our selves out of any further FA activity or sign him to an extension and give a 32 year old #2 receiver anything close to what he could get on the open market. so thanks for years tj but your time in stripes are over. and honestly that does not scare me one bit.

I am not sure why, but for some reason I just feel that Mike Brown is going to pull his head out of his ass this offseason and do some good. He has some confidence coming from last years draft and I think it might just make him make some good moves. I think either Curry or Raji needs to come home in the first. If we sign Brown in FA then we should focus on getting the best available RB in round 2. As far as TJ goes, he is done with us. If we aren't franchising him that means we are letting him walk. Bye Bye TJ.

My only question is why the hell we didn't trade him for a pick during the season when we were like 0-6 with a backup QB.

[BengalszoneBilly]

Did Clackwoods just change his name?

[Clackwoods]

Did Clackwoods just change his name?

Yes I did. Every time someone finds out I am a Bengals fan they start trashing on me and I always tell them "Next year is our year"

[membengal]

I'm ready for them to move on.

[HAPPYJAQ]

Does anybody out there SERIOUSLY believe that a team would trade anything more than a 3rd round pick for a 32-year old possession receiver? If not, let him walk and take the 3rd round comp pick in '10.

Would T.J. be the #1 receiving option in:

Oakland - Yes*

Cleveland - No (Braylon)

Detroit - No (Calvin Johnson)

St. Louis - No (Torey Holt)

Chicago - Yes*

Seattle - Yes*

Tennessee - Yes*

Kansas City - No (Dwayne Bowe)

Carolina - No (Steve Smith)

San Francisco - Yes*

Buffalo - No (Lee Evans)

Pittsburgh - No (Santonio/Hines)

Dallas - No (T.O./Roy Williams)

Minnesota - Maybe (Could be #2 behind Bernard Berrian, who is used like Ocho in their offense)

Washington - Maybe (Santana Moss?)

Tampa Bay - Yes*

Green Bay - No (Donald Driver/Greg Jennings)

Baltimore - No (Derrick Mason)

San Diego - No (Vincent Jackson)

NY Jets - Yes*

Miami - Yes*

Jacksonville - Yes*

Atlanta - No (Roddy White)

Philadelphia - Yes*

Indianapolis - No (Reggie Wayne)

Arizona - No (Wouldn't even be #3)

NY Giants - Maybe (With Plaxico, No....Without, Yes)

Houston - No (Andre Johnson)

New Orleans - No (Marques Colston)

Denver - No (Brandon Marshall)

New England - No (Randy Moss)

As of the current rosters, I believe he would be the unquestionable #1 receiving option on less than 1/3 of the teams in the NFL. This doesn't count guys like Ted Ginn of Miami and Desean Jackson of the Eagles, who may have breakout seasons this upcoming year, or guys expected to re-sign with their own teams like Antonio Bryant in Tampa.

IMO, this breakdown says a few things. First, there will be a number of teams interested in T.J. Secondly, T.J. is probably one of the 2-3 best #2 receivers in the league but surely not deserving of the average salary of the top 5 receivers in the NFL (better teams wouldn't even blink at the thought of letting T.J. go, compensation or not). Lastly, some team will regretfully pay a lot of money for his services. This will only help the Bengals, as far as compensatory picks go.

Is T.J. an older Peerless Price?

[ArmyBengal]

Saying it again, letting TJ walk instead of paying him 10 million when you have BIGGER needs to address is the smart thing to do.

Let TJ walk and pay Jason Brown to anchor our o-line for many years to come. That is smart. Paying a 32 year old #2 WR 10 million ?? Not so much...

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Saying it again, letting TJ walk instead of paying him 10 million when you have BIGGER needs to address is the smart thing to do.

Let TJ walk and pay Jason Brown to anchor our o-line for many years to come. That is smart. Paying a 32 year old #2 WR 10 million ?? Not so much...

Assuming, that is, that they don't end up 10M under the cap like they did last year.

[gregstephens]

Saying it again, letting TJ walk instead of paying him 10 million when you have BIGGER needs to address is the smart thing to do.

Let TJ walk and pay Jason Brown to anchor our o-line for many years to come. That is smart. Paying a 32 year old #2 WR 10 million ?? Not so much...

Assuming, that is, that they don't end up 10M under the cap like they did last year.

What difference does that make? Even if they do end up 10M under the cap, doesn't justify throwing it to TJ at his age and position just because we have it. Use it to make a serious (?) run at first-quality FAs, not the Jacksons and Odoms of the world, or another Sam Adams.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

What difference does that make? Even if they do end up 10M under the cap, doesn't justify throwing it to TJ at his age and position just because we have it. Use it to make a serious (?) run at first-quality FAs, not the Jacksons and Odoms of the world, or another Sam Adams.

The difference it makes is that you can't say the cap was a consideration if it ends up not being a consideration. In other words, if you use it on such a quality FA, then fine. But they better not just sit on the money, because TJ is definitely better than nothing.

In any event, I think you're drinking the anti-TJ kool aid that Mike Brown's been serving since he decided not to keep TJ. I realize that TJ's on the wrong side of 30, but he played well last year. If I didn't have any FAs targeted then I'd absolutely take TJ for one year. Basically, if they let TJ walk they had better damned well spend that money.

[Baraka]

i agree dc, they should not and can not let another 11 million go unspent. but tj was not the right place to put 10 million or roughly half of the cap space.

[ArmyBengal]

Who cares about the salary cap ?? I never mentioned it and could care less if they have the money to spend on TJ or not. You don't drop it on him RIGHT from the start and limit EVERYTHING ELSE you have a chance to do BEFORE you have a chance to do it. Anti TJ kool aid ?? Hardly, it's just the smart decision for many reasons, but I think I only need to give one. Carson's protection...

[gregstephens]

What difference does that make? Even if they do end up 10M under the cap, doesn't justify throwing it to TJ at his age and position just because we have it. Use it to make a serious (?) run at first-quality FAs, not the Jacksons and Odoms of the world, or another Sam Adams.

The difference it makes is that you can't say the cap was a consideration if it ends up not being a consideration. In other words, if you use it on such a quality FA, then fine. But they better not just sit on the money, because TJ is definitely better than nothing.

In any event, I think you're drinking the anti-TJ kool aid that Mike Brown's been serving since he decided not to keep TJ. I realize that TJ's on the wrong side of 30, but he played well last year. If I didn't have any FAs targeted then I'd absolutely take TJ for one year. Basically, if they let TJ walk they had better damned well spend that money.

I'm not drinking ant-TJ anything. I like TJ. He's a good possession receiver, got good hands. I'm saying he's not worth 10 M, it doesn't matter how much money is under the cap. He did play 'well' last year. You giving 10 M to a 30+ year old WR for four years because he played 'well'? At his age and playing 'well' (which, btw, look at the times Fredo didn't play and 'well' becomes 'average') warrants three years tops for maybe a total 10-12 M, not anywhere near what TJ thinks he's worth.

[ArmyBengal]

And appearently he thinks he worth far more than the Bengals do and has for some time now. TJ will be gone and there is little to nothing the Bengals can or will do about it. I'm not concerned...

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

I'm not drinking ant-TJ anything. I like TJ. He's a good possession receiver, got good hands. I'm saying he's not worth 10 M, it doesn't matter how much money is under the cap. He did play 'well' last year. You giving 10 M to a 30+ year old WR for four years because he played 'well'? At his age and playing 'well' (which, btw, look at the times Fredo didn't play and 'well' becomes 'average') warrants three years tops for maybe a total 10-12 M, not anywhere near what TJ thinks he's worth.

Tag's just one year. I fully realize that giving the guy a 4-year deal now would be fuggin' retarded. This is why teams that know what the hell they're doing give a guy the 4-year extension a couple years earlier. Keep the terms of contracts matching a player's likely breakdown age.

You guys are saying the cap doesn't matter, but it does. TJ is still playing at a very high level so it only makes sense to let him go if it's the only way to sign somebody else and stay under the cap. It's hard enough to win in the NFL when you do use your cap. If you just let it go to waste when you could have exercised your right to keep a good player, you don't win that way.

I can see letting him go if it's a choice between winning or losing over the next 4 years, but not if it's a choice between digits on Mikey's bank account. So if the Bengals have a real plan for free agency in place that would be disrupted by signing TJ, then OK. Fine. Let's see it. But if this is the usual Mike Brown cheapness/incompetence, then F that. You don't let a guy walk who's been here 8 years and done what TJ has just to pocket the cash.

Basically, that's what it comes down to for me: is the issue that the Bengals have better things to do with their money, or is Mikey just being a cheap bastard again? I see TJ leaving as inevitable at this point, but it better be because they're actually doing something useful. And if they do something useful, they won't end up with a big pile of unused cash like they did last year. That's why the issue of unused cap space is in fact linked to TJ's fate. It better be for a reason. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt for now.

[Kazkal]

This is why teams that know what the hell they're doing give a guy the 4-year extension a couple years earlier. Keep the terms of contracts matching a player's likely breakdown age.

Bengals have extended several contracts before they went up and have been in talks with shayne all season...

From what I remember reading another person posted was shayne was looking for 5 years where bengals looking for less...

[HairOnFire]

What I am saying is that a guarenteed 2nd or third rounder (from a trade) this year would be MUCH better than hoping/praying for a possible round 3.5 compensatory pick. It's simply not roughly equal.

But.....I doubt any of this will convince you otherwise.

Why should it?

Haven't you conveniently forgotten how the trade speculation was based upon trading Housh for that 2nd or 3rd rounder LAST year, not this year? Or isn't that rather huge consideration a big enough detail for you to bother with, sweetie?

Again, a trade made prior to the trade deadline last season would have cost the Bengals almost a full season of Housh's service, right? So what's that worth in trade value?

Last, you can spin the value of a 3rd round comp pick until your fingers bleed, but a 3rd round pick is indeed a 3rd round pick, not a round 3.5 pick, and both are close enough to qualify as roughly equal value under the scenario that was being discussed.

[TJJackson]

except

when you make a trade of a player for a pick, you get that pick. and usually, you ask for and get that pick that same year. Bird in the hand.

vs

when you let a player walk, you get down on your knees and PRAY you'll be awarded a comp pick. Not in the upcoming draft, but the FOLLOWING year. Bird in the bush.

[Clackwoods]

What I am saying is that a guarenteed 2nd or third rounder (from a trade) this year would be MUCH better than hoping/praying for a possible round 3.5 compensatory pick. It's simply not roughly equal.

But.....I doubt any of this will convince you otherwise.

Why should it?

Haven't you conveniently forgotten how the trade speculation was based upon trading Housh for that 2nd or 3rd rounder LAST year, not this year? Or isn't that rather huge consideration a big enough detail for you to bother with, sweetie?

Again, a trade made prior to the trade deadline last season would have cost the Bengals almost a full season of Housh's service, right? So what's that worth in trade value?

Last, you can spin the value of a 3rd round comp pick until your fingers bleed, but a 3rd round pick is indeed a 3rd round pick, not a round 3.5 pick, and both are close enough to qualify as roughly equal value under the scenario that was being discussed.

We should have traded his ass to the eagles or 49ers for a second at the trade deadline. We had no victories anyways.

[HairOnFire]

Bird in the hand vs Bird in the bush.

No argument. But again, if the question is why didn't the Bengals make sure they would retain some portion of Housh's trade value by moving him before last seasons deadline...then the first questions you need to ask are what was Housh's value in 2008 as opposed to what was "almost" guaranteed later even if the Bengals did absolutely nothing. And there's the rub because the difference isn't very much. Yes, you do have to wait for the return in value, but by refusing to trade you have Housh's service for most of a full season, and you've given yourself more time and opportunity to sign him long term.

[HairOnFire]

We should have traded his ass to the eagles or 49ers for a second at the trade deadline. We had no victories anyways.

(((shrug)))

The Bengals refusal to trade bought more time to negotiate. That's smart business under most circumstances, but not in a climate where there was no realistic chance the player would stay under any conditions.