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DesperateDerelict

Grading the position coaches

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I am here to neither praise Marvin, nor bury him. However, any General is only as good the officers he surrounds himself with, who are only as good as the men they lead. So, instead of hijacking an existing thread, I thought I’d list the players as well as the position coaches, and grade the position coaches based on the following criteria:

1) Recognizing talent (via draft, free agency, and existing roster)

2) Developing players – do they continue to improve?

3) Getting players to understand their role and execute consistently

The coordinators are responsible for the schemes and game plans, so I will try not to rank the position coaches based on excellent and / or crappy schemes and planning.

OFFENSE – Bob Bratkowsli (OC) – I like to complain about him, but we are consistently a top offense. Unimaginative, but productive.

OFFENSIVE LINE

Paul Alexander: A

Alexander has had two 1st round picks to work with at tackles (Levi & Willie), plus two 2nd round guards (Whitworth, Steinbach), and parlayed them into a consistently good to great unit. His recognition and development of talent is probably the best of all position coaches on the Bengals.

Anderson, Willie ( T ) 1996-2007

Andrews, Stacy ( G ) 2004-2007

Fontenot, Jerry ( C ) 2004-2004

Ghiaciuc, Eric ( C ) 2005-2007

Goff, Mike ( G ) 1998-2003

Jones, Levi ( T ) 2002-2007

Kieft, Adam ( T ) 2005-2006

Kooistra, Scott ( T ) 2003-2007

Leyva, Victor ( G ) 2001-2003

Moore, Larry ( G ) 2004-2005

O'Dwyer, Matt ( G ) 1999-2003

Rehberg, Scott ( G ) 2000-2003

Santucci, Dan ( C ) 2007-2007

Steinbach, Eric ( G ) 2003-2006

Stepanovich, Alex ( C ) 2007-2007

Sulfsted, Alex ( T ) 2004-2004

Szalay, Thatcher ( G ) 2002-2003

Vieira, Steven ( G ) 2005-2005

Whitworth, Andrew ( G ) 2006-2007

Wilkerson, Ben ( C ) 2006-2006

Williams, Bobbie ( G ) 2004-2007

RUNNING BACK

Jim Anderson: A -

You have to give him a pass for two-carry Perry, although they did miss on Steven Jackson to get to CP. Corey was a 2nd rounder, Rudi and Jeremi were in the 4th. Some good development in Dorsey and Watson.

Bennett, Brandon ( RB ) 1998-2003

Dawson, Clifton ( RB ) 2007-2007

Dorsey, DeDe ( RB ) 2007-2007

Johnson, Jeremi ( FB ) 2003-2007

Johnson, Rudi ( RB ) 2001-2007

Luchey, Nick ( FB ) 2005-2005

Lynch, James ( FB ) 2004-2004

Perry, Chris ( RB ) 2004-2006

Watson, Kenny ( RB ) 2003-2007

Whitehead, Terrence ( RB ) 2006-2006

Wilson, Quincy ( RB ) 2006-2006

QUARTERBACK

Ken Zampese: A –

Having Palmer has made it easy for him, but at least he didn’t screw it up. Plus, he got more out of Kitna then I would have ever imagined possible.

Bramlet, Casey ( QB ) 2004-2004

Fitzpatrick, Ryan ( QB ) 2007-2007

Johnson, Doug ( QB ) 2006-2006

Kitna, Jon ( QB ) 2001-2005

Krenzel, Craig ( QB ) 2005-2005

Matthews, Shane ( QB ) 2003-2003

Palmer, Carson ( QB ) 2003-2007

Rowe, Jeff ( QB ) 2007-2007

Wright, Anthony ( QB ) 2006-2006

WIDE RECIEVER

Hue Jackson: B +

Mike Sheppard: B -

Obviously, benefits from a stud (CJ) who’s almost always healthy – and the team’s biggest prima donna. Housh (7th Round) and Henry (3rd ) are both success stories on the field. Mixed results in later rounds and free agency. Sheppard gets a B – because of this year’s inferior route running.

Brazell, Bennie ( WR ) 2006-2006

Chatman, Antonio ( WR ) 2006-2007

Green, Skyler ( WR ) 2007-2007

Hamilton, Lawrence ( WR ) 2003-2003

Henry, Chris ( WR ) 2005-2007

Holt, Glenn ( WR ) 2006-2007

Houshmandzadeh, T.J. ( WR ) 2001-2007

Johnson, Chad ( WR ) 2001-2007

Maxwell, Marcus ( WR ) 2007-2007

McNeal, Reggie ( WR ) 2006-2006

Perry, Tab ( WR ) 2005-2007

Russell, Cliff ( WR ) 2004-2004

Walter, Kevin ( WR ) 2003-2005

Warrick, Peter ( WR ) 2000-2004

Washington, Kelley ( WR ) 2003-2006

TIGHT END

Jonathon Hayes: C +

As much as I hate to defend a Hayes . . . God Almighty! He hasn’t had much to work with or an OC that believes in his players. Kelly, and Stewart before him, were as good as can be expected. Coates has promise. Schobel wasn’t his fault.

Coats, Daniel ( TE ) 2007-2007

Edmonds, Chris ( TE ) 2002-2003

Kelly, Reggie ( TE ) 2003-2007

Lawrie, Nate ( TE ) 2007-2007

Schobel, Matt ( TE ) 2002-2005

Stewart, Tony ( TE ) 2002-2006

The Defense is next . . . . .

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. . . .here’s where it gets U*G*L*Y !!!

DEFENSE – Leslie Frazier (03-04) and Chuck Bresnahan (05-07). Yeecchhhh!

DEFENSIVE LINE

Jay Hayes: F

No impact players. Confusion on the field. Long runs. No sacks. No improvement. None. Justin Smith has regressed every year. Geathers had a great rookie year, so he ruins him for his 2nd year. Just about every pick is a reach and a miss. Free agency a joke. Most damning, players who leave here do better elsewhere (Shaun Smith, etc.).

Adams, Sam ( DT ) 2006-2006

Askew, Matthias ( DT ) 2004-2005

Clemons, Duane ( DE ) 2003-2005

Fanene, Jonathan ( DE ) 2005-2007

Geathers, Robert ( DE ) 2004-2007

Gibson, Oliver ( DT ) 1999-2003

Lewis, Marcus ( DT ) 2006-2006

Martin, Terrance ( DT ) 2004-2004

Moore, Langston ( DT ) 2004-2004

Myers, Michael ( DT ) 2007-2007

Patterson, Elton ( DE ) 2003-2004

Peko, Domata ( DT ) 2006-2007

Powell, Carl ( DE ) 2003-2005

Robinson, Bryan ( DE ) 2005-2007

Rucker, Frostee ( DE ) 2006-2007

Scott, Greg ( DT ) 2004-2004

Smith, Justin ( DE ) 2001-2007

Smith, Shaun ( DT ) 2004-2006

Steele, Glen ( DT ) 1998-2003

Thornton, John ( DT ) 2002-2007

Williams, Tony ( DT ) 2001-2004

LINEBACKERS

Ricky Hundley: D +

This is being generous, because of the crap he had to work with last year. Even if we give him a pass for BOTH Pollack and Thurman (which we shouldn’t), Ahmad Brooks was his baby, and he still has the word ‘potential’ associated with him 2 years later. Lots of swings & misses. Lots of brain farts on the field. Lots of misery in Bengal-land.

Fitzgerald gets an incomplete, but has his work cut out for him.

Abdullah, Khalid ( LB ) 2003-2004

Brooks, Ahmad ( LB ) 2006-2007

Chamberlin, Frank ( LB ) 2003-2004

Frazier, Andre ( LB ) 2006-2007

Hardy, Kevin ( LB ) 2003-2004

Jackson, LaDairis ( LB ) 2003-2004

Jeanty, Rashad ( LB ) 2006-2007

Johnson, Landon ( LB ) 2004-2007

Johnson, Riall ( LB ) 2001-2003

Jones, Dhani ( LB ) 2007-2007

Levels, Dwayne ( LB ) 2003-2003

Manning, Roy ( LB ) 2007-2007

Marshall, Lemar ( LB ) 2007-2007

Maxwell, Jim ( LB ) 2007-2007

Mays, Corey ( LB ) 2007-2007

Miller, Caleb ( LB ) 2004-2007

Navies, Hannibal ( LB ) 2005-2005

Nicholson, A.J. ( LB ) 2006-2006

Pollack, David ( LB ) 2005-2006

Ross, Adrian ( LB ) 1998-2003

Schlegel, Anthony ( LB ) 2007-2007

Simmons, Brian ( LB ) 1998-2006

Stevens, Larry ( LB ) 2004-2005

Thurman, Odell ( LB ) 2005-2005

Webster, Nate ( LB ) 2004-2005

Whiteside, Keyon ( LB ) 2003-2003

Wilkins, Marcus ( LB ) 2004-2006

DEFENSIVE BACKS

Kevin Coyle: C –

The gambler. Lots of interceptions, lots of yards given up. In his defense (no pun intended), he has had to rebuild what was easily the worst collection of “players” we had, without much help from the front 7. He has commanded a whole lot of day one picks, and has done fairly well at recognizing talent. Will need to have a great year next year to justify all his 1st and 2nd rounders.

Adams, Blue ( CB ) 2007-2007

Bauman, Rashad ( CB ) 2004-2006

Beckett, Rogers ( S ) 2003-2004

Body, Patrick ( CB ) 2005-2005

Brooks, Greg ( CB ) 2004-2006

Burris, Jeff ( CB ) 2002-2003

Busing, John ( S ) 2006-2007

Hall, Leon ( CB ) 2007-2007

Hawkins, Artrell ( CB ) 1998-2003

Herring, Kim ( S ) 2004-2005

Jackson, Dexter ( S ) 2006-2007

James, Tory ( CB ) 2003-2006

Jones, David ( CB ) 2007-2007

Jones, Herana-Daze ( S ) 2006-2007

Joseph, Johnathan ( CB ) 2006-2007

Kaesviharn, Kevin ( S ) 2001-2006

Kilmer, Ethan ( S ) 2006-2007

Manual, Marquand ( S ) 2002-2003

Mitchell, Anthony ( S ) 2004-2006

Myles, Reggie ( CB ) 2002-2005

Ndukwe, Chinedum ( S ) 2007-2007

Ohalete, Ifeanyi ( S ) 2005-2005

O'Neal, Deltha ( CB ) 2004-2007

Ratliff, Keiwan ( CB ) 2004-2007

Roberts, Terrell ( CB ) 2003-2005

Roman, Mark ( CB ) 2000-2003

Thompson, Lamont ( S ) 2002-2003

Weathersby, Dennis ( CB ) 2003-2004

White, Marvin ( S ) 2007-2007

Williams, Madieu ( S ) 2004-2007

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Have to disagree with your secondary coach grade

So having 2 players named to pro-bowl, and 1 all rookie selection is a C+?

What does he have to do to get an A?

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Have to disagree with your secondary coach grade

So having 2 players named to pro-bowl, and 1 all rookie selection is a C+?

What does he have to do to get an A?

Well, he could get the passing defense to be ranked better than 29th. He's got the last 2 1st rounders, plus the 2nd rounder Madieu and our highest priced FA in Dexter, yet we haven't been in the top 10 in pass defense since Lamar Parrish and David Fulcher.

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Have to disagree with your secondary coach grade

So having 2 players named to pro-bowl, and 1 all rookie selection is a C+?

What does he have to do to get an A?

It would seem you have to be a dud like Alexander who can't work with anyting besides 1st and 2nd rounders,IMO Coyle is higher he's had less to work with and turned 2 dud's in to probowlers.His current crop of DB's are also looking great with JJoe,Hall,Duke & hopefully madieu returns.

Well, he could get the passing defense to be ranked better than 29th. He's got the last 2 1st rounders, plus the 2nd rounder Madieu and our highest priced FA in Dexter, yet we haven't been in the top 10 in pass defense since Lamar Parrish and David Fulcher.

Theres this thing called pass rush you know a thing we don't have?

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Theres this thing called pass rush you know a thing we don't have?

When was the last time you saw us get a 'coverage' sack?

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Theres this thing called pass rush you know a thing we don't have?

When was the last time you saw us get a 'coverage' sack?

When was the last time the other QB didn't have all day to throw? How many sacks did our DE's have this year?

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When was the last time the other QB didn't have all day to throw? How many sacks did our DE's have this year?

I agree, Kaz - hence the failing grade for Jay Hayes. However, I cannot give Coyle a free pass based on our continued presence in the NFL's "Pass Defense Hall of Shame". Hey, my daughter would be thrilled with a C - in certain subjects.

The grade for coaches is based on talent recognition, development of players, and execution of the schemes. How can you give Coyle higher than a C - ?. We were ranked LAST IN THE NFL in pass D, then finished with BAL, a reciever-less ARIZ, TEN, 49ers, Dolphins, and 3 bad weather games (St.L, PIT, CLE).

I'm very tired of the atmosphere surrounding the Bengal's defense for the last 15 years. "The operation was a success but the patient died" is the tagline for a joke, not a moral victory. NO MORE EXCUSES!!!

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Theres this thing called pass rush you know a thing we don't have?

When was the last time you saw us get a 'coverage' sack?

That would be every sack that Justin Smith has ever enjoyed...

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When was the last time you saw us get a 'coverage' sack?

That would be every sack that Justin Smith has ever enjoyed...

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

Of course, Thorntons were ALL legit!!!!

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For lack of "coverage" sacks, I blame the combination of poor pressure and Chuckie's prevent zone. With that secondary cushion, the QB *will* find somebody if he has any time at all. Soft coverage makes sense when you have a fierce front 7, but we don't. I think the personnel we have in the secondary will look good when they have somebody who's not a moron coaching them up.

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For lack of "coverage" sacks, I blame the combination of poor pressure and Chuckie's prevent zone. With that secondary cushion, the QB *will* find somebody if he has any time at all. Soft coverage makes sense when you have a fierce front 7, but we don't. I think the personnel we have in the secondary will look good when they have somebody who's not a moron coaching them up.

So, DC - What's your grade for Coyle . . . or is it the DC's fault???

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I don't think coyle deserves a A but I don't think alexander deserves a A+ or any sort of A or a B.

The guy does good with high grade talent who are alrdy good but what about late round project's where's our late round studs?

the guy's only success is off 1st day picks.

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For lack of "coverage" sacks, I blame the combination of poor pressure and Chuckie's prevent zone. With that secondary cushion, the QB *will* find somebody if he has any time at all. Soft coverage makes sense when you have a fierce front 7, but we don't. I think the personnel we have in the secondary will look good when they have somebody who's not a moron coaching them up.

So, DC - What's your grade for Coyle . . . or is it the DC's fault???

I know it's not Coyle's fault but damn can we get someone back there in the secondary that other teams fear, we truly have not had that since David Fulcher. I watched Green Bay games with a man crush on Atari Bigby, he was everywhere on that field and was bringing it throughout the playoffs. I'm not so high on Nduke and Marvin White, they looked decent but did not really excite me to think they were the future I'm hoping they make me apologize. Hopefully if we can get a few good defensive linemen and some kind of pass rush Hall and Joseph will not have to stay in coverage for like 10 seconds. I can't believe that Zbikowski(whatever) has fallen so far, last year he was being billed as a sure fire first round pick when he came out now I don't even hear his name. I will take him in the third round.

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For lack of "coverage" sacks, I blame the combination of poor pressure and Chuckie's prevent zone. With that secondary cushion, the QB *will* find somebody if he has any time at all. Soft coverage makes sense when you have a fierce front 7, but we don't. I think the personnel we have in the secondary will look good when they have somebody who's not a moron coaching them up.

So, DC - What's your grade for Coyle . . . or is it the DC's fault???

I like the overview but being old school, the grade I'd give to all position coaches would match our record of 7 - 9.

An ugly D.

Its broad brush but when you look at individuals its hard to find anyone with a stand out season. Did any coach do an acceptable job at any position? Our record and player stats says no. Its not just nbr of Pro Bowlers either. Chad's failures cost us games. Carson had too many bad games surrounded by fine games. TJ is hard to knock so I won't.

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I like the overview but being old school, the grade I'd give to all position coaches would match our record of 7 - 9.

An ugly D.

Wow....a tough grader! Did I have you for my Diffy-Q class at UC?

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I don't think coyle deserves a A but I don't think alexander deserves a A+ or any sort of A or a B.

The guy does good with high grade talent who are alrdy good but what about late round project's where's our late round studs?

the guy's only success is off 1st day picks.

I don't know - Andrews was a project, and Kooistra was an ok 'emergency' fill in. Guy-chick was 4th or 5th round. I can't remember the last pro-bowler on the offensive line that wasn't a day 1 pick - maybe Bruce Mathews???

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When was the last time the other QB didn't have all day to throw? How many sacks did our DE's have this year?

I agree, Kaz - hence the failing grade for Jay Hayes. However, I cannot give Coyle a free pass based on our continued presence in the NFL's "Pass Defense Hall of Shame". Hey, my daughter would be thrilled with a C - in certain subjects.

The grade for coaches is based on talent recognition, development of players, and execution of the schemes. How can you give Coyle higher than a C - ?. We were ranked LAST IN THE NFL in pass D, then finished with BAL, a reciever-less ARIZ, TEN, 49ers, Dolphins, and 3 bad weather games (St.L, PIT, CLE).

I'm very tired of the atmosphere surrounding the Bengal's defense for the last 15 years. "The operation was a success but the patient died" is the tagline for a joke, not a moral victory. NO MORE EXCUSES!!!

Development? Joseph, Hall, Duke Nuke, White? Or even KK, who got 6 INTs his last year here, and we got from a Kindergarten.

Hell, lets give the Offense an F too, since they didnt Outscore the Browns this year, or SD the year before. We lost, so they suck too.

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Development? Joseph, Hall, Duke Nuke, White? Or even KK, who got 6 INTs his last year here, and we got from a Kindergarten.

Hell, lets give the Offense an F too, since they didnt Outscore the Browns this year, or SD the year before. We lost, so they suck too.

Yikes! Another tough grader.

Shouldn't development include yearly improvement? Shouldn't the grade include being in the right place at the right time? Tackling?

I think our secondary CAN be pretty good . . . with some help. But as someone said earlier, we don't have opposing Offensive Coordinators staying awake all night with nightmares about our 'D'.

I betcha we keep some Defensive co-ordinators up late, though.

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I watched Green Bay games with a man crush on Atari Bigby, he was everywhere on that field and was bringing it throughout the playoffs.

Several years ago I watched in suprise as the Bengals signed two undrafted free agents that I had pimped. Perhaps sensing that I was on some kind of a roll several members of this very message suggested I toss a third name into the hat. I picked Atari Bigby. I just loved the way he played.

Of course it didn't happen, I think Bigby signed with Miami, and I'm pretty sure he bounced to at least one more team before finding a freaking starting role with the Packers. But the funny thing about all this, and the reason I mention it, is because I read after the draft that Bigby was a card carrying nutjob. A whacko with papers. And he remained that way until fairly recently...when he crossed paths with a doctor who prescribed the right medication. An instant cure.

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Paul Alexander...

Levi and Willie were first rounders.

Steiney, Whit were first day..

Andrews is his major project and Ill give him a B- for that...

Bluto is average...Koos isnt much.

the rest of his players were failures to a certain degree.

Id rate him C- for his career....

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Development? Joseph, Hall, Duke Nuke, White? Or even KK, who got 6 INTs his last year here, and we got from a Kindergarten.

Hell, lets give the Offense an F too, since they didnt Outscore the Browns this year, or SD the year before. We lost, so they suck too.

Yikes! Another tough grader.

Shouldn't development include yearly improvement? Shouldn't the grade include being in the right place at the right time? Tackling?

I think our secondary CAN be pretty good . . . with some help. But as someone said earlier, we don't have opposing Offensive Coordinators staying awake all night with nightmares about our 'D'.

I betcha we keep some Defensive co-ordinators up late, though.

I lack your dreamcatcher for O and D coordinators, so ill take your word for it. So now we have a new criteria, since the others werent so good? You didnt mention any of that before. Apparently your ranking is fixed, and the reasons are changed to suit. Thats fair.

In the last 2 years Coyle has replaced every secondary position as a starter, some more than once. We went from veterans to starting rookies at three positions and still played pretty well. Its the best unit on the defense, by far. Its easy on the Internet to want to fire everyone, in real life you can't often do that and compete.

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Really, really nice review. Good topic to start/discuss.

Here is my take:

OFFENSIVE LINE

Paul Alexander: (DD) A - (KW) Solid B

Coach Alexander has had one of the NFL's best RT's to anchor his squad for quite some time now. Like Zampese, it is pretty tough to screw up a line like Jones, Steiny, Williams and Anderson, no matter who the center is. He has not turned the corner with Stacey..yet. Whitworth is proving himself but I have not seen him make chicken salad yet out of anything lower than an r2 pick.

RUNNING BACK

Jim Anderson: (DD) A - (KW) A

I do not put the CP selection and subsequent failure soley on him. Getting the most out of Corey, when the team was so one dimensional, was impressive. Rudi had a very decent run and we might see some hope with Irons coming back. DeDe is exciting and Watson is a brave soldier. Getting this squad to produce, given line issues and then starting back-ups merits an A.

QUARTERBACK

Ken Zampese: (DD) A – (KW) INCOMPLETE

I'd like to mark him highly as he got Kitna to be about as good as his talent level could ever permit but with Carson's talent and the drop-off we saw this year, it was somehwat disappointing. I reserve the right to withhold my mark.

WIDE RECIEVER

Hue Jackson: (DD) B + (KW) A-

Mike Sheppard: (DD) B - (KW) C-

I rate these guys with this in mind: Hue had to shape the squad into something. TJ had to learn how to stay healthy. CJ had to turn his immemse desire and talent into results. Henry and others had to stay diligent despite knowing they are at best a 3rd WR or lower. He has to get eveyone tight on routes. CJ, could be good anywhere..the rest I give Hue credit for paving the way. Now, Sheppard seems to have less grip on the squad. Tantrums, uneven effort, mental mistakes all point to lack of coaching discipline. Mr. Sheppard needs to step up an re-wire this squad.

TIGHT END

Jonathon Hayes: (DD) C + (KW) C

I mean, how can you tell? They block ok. When they catch, they do ok. Not sure what is really to be excited about. C is a good grade. Not great but good.

DEFENSIVE LINE

Jay Hayes: (DD) F - (KW) F-

Terrile, just terrible. Geathers is about the most talented guy around and they cannot figure out how to use him properly. For Hayes to still hae a job is beyond me.

LINEBACKERS

Ricky Hunley: (DD) D + (KW) D-

Injuries are not his fault. Acknowledged. One-move cut back runners going for more than 200 yards are his fault. Just an unacceptable result no matter the talent. Spikes should be on your list. That was a time when there was some hope. There is not mch to cheer about at LB. Heck, at least Lebeau got guys like Spikes, Ross and Simmons to do their jobs.

DEFENSIVE BACKS

Kevin Coyle: (DD) C – (KW) D-

Lots of higher picks. Lots of misses and busts. Not really much "development" going on. Did get Deltha and Tory "the double-pump move confuses me" James to up their game for a season. KK did decent and maybe Coyle played a role but other than that, there have been more bad protection breakdowns than can be accepted. Poor safety play has marred what would be an adequate job of guiding JJ and LH. What he does with Chinny and White will really indicate Coyle's ability.

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OldCat -

You are right . . . I was trying to take the co-ordinators out of the grading process, which is damn near impossible. However, if you look on e-bay, there are some great dream-catchers for sale. :D

KingWilly - Wow - Another tough grader - I'm not sure I'd have made it through school with you guys. However, your grades are well reasoned, so I'll give YOU a B+ :sure:

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